Modern Society and the Value of our Values

Good to meet you, PumpkinHead. You've raised a lot of interesting points, and asked intriguing questions.

I hope I'll have some time to come back here and mull about this some more - or get my mullings onto the screen.

PH

If "values" has anything to do with what the various gods tell us -- then they are values only insofar as most evidence seems to point to humans being at the seat of "divine revelation" -- not the gods.

"Values" are whatever humans say values are.

And they change -- both in time and in location.

Societies at times have seen fit to accept certain behavior that at later times they consider taboo. And, of course, the reverse -- at times see fit to consider behavior taboo that at a later time becomes acceptable. (Slavery and abortion rights, come immediately to mind.)

And at any given time, certain societies will consider behavior taboo that is acceptable in other societies.

Values is a thing in flux.

And extremely in flux at this point in time, I think. While I don't hold to the thought that some have that the loss of God will lead to the decline of civilization -- famine, overcrowding, disease, degradation of arable land and of marine ecosystems, and the reast might do that, but I don't think the lack of a God will.

True, though, that there is no longer any sort of consensus about goals, not even one despotically imposed on us (at least, not in most of the places we are posting from).

I do think, and this has been bugging me more than usual the last couple of days, that material accumulation and supposed leisure (as opposed to real leisure, leisure of the mind rather than the sort of illusory leisure you get from heated leather seats and beachfront resorts) have somehow become ends in themselves rather than means to an end -- self-reflection, development of the mind, and cultivation of deep personal relationships.

And that's probably the last of me on this thread...

Concerning values:
.
I agree with your sense, but wonder if 'flux' (which means flow, ebb and tide) really describes our position here. True, there's the sense of being unmoored, at sea... but it is WE that are in flux - not our values. The values we live by are quite fixed - defintite commitments and psychological motivations. However, they have not been subjected to the kind of scrutiny given to -say- performance analysis of businesses and social institutions, or the microstructure of the physical world. Our values are ossified. And they are serving us very badly in some areas of life.

I suspect that the reason that we feel at sea is that there is a distance between the values that we presently live by (our cultural values) and the values that we naturally have as bodies and minds and as social and natural animals. We need to put our values in flux!. I guess this was also Neizsche's point: put your values on the scales and weigh them...

so Frank - are your personal values "fluxable", according to societies tolerances also? Or is that just the rest of mankind?

I believe the western world is at a crossroads. Become moral or be commercial. Commercial in the sense that, to gain materially, morality becomes subverted by all means necessary. Under Bush the trend to be commercial has seemingly accelerated.

My values have apparently always been in flux -- although there are certain core values that seem never to change.

I will not -- nor have I ever -- felt a lack of respect for a person based on race, ethnicity, creed, or any of the other like issue.

I will not steal or kill. I try to be honest --although I have occasionally "expanded" a story "to make it more interesting."

But there are values that have changed considerably.

As a young, impressionable high schooler, I thought what Joe Mc Carthy was doing was laudable. I now recognize that his conduct was disgusting.

As a youngster, I thought my mother and father were ignorant peasants. I now realize that they were a hell of a lot smarter (in a street sense) than I realized -- and that they were survivors under very trying circumstances.

When Ronald Reagan ran against Jimmy Carter, I voted for Reagan -- and considered Carter a failure. I now realize that was a mistaken value judgement.

I could go on and on -- but I'm sure you get the picture.

Are your values set in stone, Snood, or have they been in flux also?

Pumpy; I would like to add a micro modification to Frank's post; values are inate to the valuee; that is they are the gleanings of a lifetime of influences and experiences both personal, and as a participant in various institutions.
Many are inherited, imbued from family, teachers, and the institutions associated with, by default, or choice.
Values have apparent potency by virtue of the size of their "belief core"; the larger the group, and the higher its profile, the more credance is given to its "creed" or value set. But actually the "value" of a value can be measured best by its relevance to improving the human condition (sometimes hard to assess), and mere rote adherance to a dogmatic, outdated, traditional set of claimed values is frequently the source of complacency, or unjustified violence against ideas that, while applicable to a changing world, do not mesh with the perceived "values" of the culture.
It is the "value" in the "value" that is "valuable"!

Excellent line

What's important to me has changed over the years, but I'd like to think that's been a function of internal contemplation, and not societal more. Internal contemplation and the influence of that pesky higher power I choose to call God.

No problem with that, Snood.

But I choose to call that "pesky higher power" -- growing up and maturing in my thought processes.

You may be right. There may be a GOD involved, but there certainly is no unambiguous evidence that points in that direction for me. So I will stick with the idea that my values have changed as I've gained more experience (gotten older).

Not trying to be "right", my brother - just tellin how I feel....

"Value" is determined by the individual's environment. That's what the individual is taught by his parents, peers, and those he comes in contact with. As communication and travel beocmes easier, the individual is able to see outside his own environment, it may influence his personal values. c.i.

BoGoWo wrote:



Your getting closer but I think PumpkinHead's main point/question has been over looked.

I think the main point is without god there can be no (absolute) value.

A quote from writings on Nietzsche:

>>We can see Nietzsche attitude towards nihilism most clearly in The Gay Science, where he announces for the first time that "God is dead!" This announcement amounts to Nietzsche's recognition that nihilism is upon [us], for without God, humans are deprived of the supports of absolute values and eternal truths. All views that pronounce such values and truths (or even their possibility) rely on the existence of God ("how much must collapse now that this faith has been undermined because it was built upon this faith, propped up by it, grown into it; for example, the whole of our European morality" <<

And it goes on to say:

>>The death of God is what poses the nihilist question for modern man. As a number of Dostoyevski's characters ponder, "if God is dead, then everything is permitted" (or a different formulation: "if God is dead, then nothing is forbidden"). This is the nihilist Void, and far from drawing back from it, Nietzsche reaches out to drag us to its edge and make us take a long look into its blackness. What does the Void devour? Everything --<<

>> Nietzsche's analysis of the different moral systems is his first move in avoiding the nihilist conclusions that there is no truth. He asserts not that there is no truth but that there is an appropriate truth for each type and that every view has its proper adherents. The problem with Enlightenment values is not the truths they announce, but the presumption of absoluteness, universality, and eternity. The "frog" perspective is no less valid to the frog (or the lamb morality to the lamb) than the eagle's perspective is to the eagle; the problem is when the frog or the lamb claims that its perspective is the only, the true, the objective one. Such a claim is absurd without God, yet God has been killed by precisely those that wish to maintain the universalist doctrines of the frog/lamb.<<



I think I get it, Namely that, absolutes are absurd without god, and that >>one must simply recognize that nihilism (the death 0f god) would deny the frog even the frog's perspective, whereas Nietzsche recognizes that that perspective is appropriate to the frog - but not to everyone! <<

But I think I disagree. In others words, god is dead (does not, nor has ever existed) yet there is value/truth, to be found in the relative.

But that is circular, i.e.....The one who possesses the value, and IS the value, claims there is value. Value has value to value.

Circular.

?

Here we go again!

twyvel, "Circular" means no end. Who created the circle? c.i.

Relative value; my life has meaning which gives it value, is an illusion if it's based in nihilism; life (existence), as an accidental phenomenal occurrence is meaningless, godless, pointless etc.

If there is no absolute value (god), relative value is an delusion, perhaps a necessary one for many because they can't face nihilism.


Most, agnostic, atheists and theists live in delusions of; "I don't know but lets suppose and pretend there is value anyway."


There appears to be only two choices; Nihilism or god.

cicerone imposter wrote:




It's circular reasoning.

Who created reasoning, thought?

?

Au contraire twyv...;

In a void where no absolute values exist, there is infinite choice, since there is no right, and no wrong!
In such an environment, as I agree this one is, choice is paramount; but of course, with the choice comes responsibility - it is precisely because nothing matters, that the individual's choice becomes to fully important.

We count on each other to keep this planet alive and well, and able to support life; and, with a little luck, able to support a life worth living for all that choose to participate. So all those choices matter intensely!