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Alexandr Litvenenko killed by polonium 210!

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 05:23 pm
when I said how much? a few pages back i did mean what quantity do you get for $69..

0.1 micro curie

how much does it take to kill an adult? I don't suppose many experiments have been done (hope not) but I think it would cost a bit more than that to be a lethal dose.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 10:52 pm
A curie is a rather large unit -- 36 billion disintegrations per second if memory serves me right. The radiation dose received is proportional to the product of the curie value and the energy of the individual disintegrations. Not all are equal - some gamma emitters exhibit 0.1 MEV decays, others 7-10 MEV decays. The latter are much more penetrating and harmful. Alpha decays have very high energy, but are easily stopped - they don't penetrate the skin. However, inside the body and lodged near fast reproducing cells, they can be very harmful in small doses.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Nov, 2006 04:04 am
georgeob1 wrote:
A curie is a rather large unit -- 36 billion disintegrations per second if memory serves me right. The radiation dose received is proportional to the product of the curie value and the energy of the individual disintegrations. Not all are equal - some gamma emitters exhibit 0.1 MEV decays, others 7-10 MEV decays. The latter are much more penetrating and harmful. Alpha decays have very high energy, but are easily stopped - they don't penetrate the skin. However, inside the body and lodged near fast reproducing cells, they can be very harmful in small doses.
So going back to Walter's advert, are you saying you can buy enough Po210 over the internet (for $69!) to kill someone? So the terrorists dont need to detonate a dirty radiological bomb to panic a city...they just buy some Po210, put it in some small packages that degrade in a few days, and go around targetting specific buildings or areas wherever they like. No wonder COBRA has been in session 6 times recently. Note to US Dept of Trade...it would be a really good idea if you discouraged pollonium sales. Especially to the general public.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Nov, 2006 04:58 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
A curie is a rather large unit -- 36 billion disintegrations per second if memory serves me right. The radiation dose received is proportional to the product of the curie value and the energy of the individual disintegrations. Not all are equal - some gamma emitters exhibit 0.1 MEV decays, others 7-10 MEV decays. The latter are much more penetrating and harmful. Alpha decays have very high energy, but are easily stopped - they don't penetrate the skin. However, inside the body and lodged near fast reproducing cells, they can be very harmful in small doses.
So going back to Walter's advert, are you saying you can buy enough Po210 over the internet (for $69!) to kill someone? So the terrorists dont need to detonate a dirty radiological bomb to panic a city...they just buy some Po210, put it in some small packages that degrade in a few days, and go around targetting specific buildings or areas wherever they like. No wonder COBRA has been in session 6 times recently. Note to US Dept of Trade...it would be a really good idea if you discouraged pollonium sales. Especially to the general public.

Wikipedia wrote:
Which means that to poison someone buying Po210 from the source advertised means buying approx 5000 packages at $69 each. (I'm sure they would discount on production of al Qaida membership card). But even so its small beer. This is to kill one person, i.e. has to ingest the Po210 from all 5000 or so purchases. So I dont think Litvinenko was killed with internet purchased Po.

HOWEVER Po210 made by transmutation of bismuth in a neutron stream is much more efficient. Only a few grammes are made each year (I seriously suggest not making any) but off the top of my head IF just one gramme was distributed evenly among the population, it would be enough to kill 850,000 people.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Nov, 2006 09:53 pm
There is a very wide variety of poisons that can be directly purchased or easily made from materials readily available even in Europe, and which are leathal iin very small doses, properly administered. Cyanide is an obvious example. Sarin , an early nerve gas, is widely though clandestinely, available, and, if I am not mistaken, some Japanese loonies attempted to release it in the Tokyo subway system a decade or so ago. Polonium is interesting only because, as a radioactive substance, it excited particular fear and revuksion in people.
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Nov, 2006 11:37 pm
"...........The poisoning of the former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko would have required considerable scientific know-how, according to experts............."


".........Polonium-210 occurs naturally in the environment and in people at low concentrations. But acquiring enough of it to kill would require individuals with expertise and powerful connections......."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6190144.stm
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Nov, 2006 06:22 am
georgeob1 wrote:
There is a very wide variety of poisons that can be directly purchased or easily made from materials readily available even in Europe, and which are leathal iin very small doses, properly administered. Cyanide is an obvious example. Sarin , an early nerve gas, is widely though clandestinely, available, and, if I am not mistaken, some Japanese loonies attempted to release it in the Tokyo subway system a decade or so ago. Polonium is interesting only because, as a radioactive substance, it excited particular fear and revuksion in people.
Its not just that George. Enough Po210 to do the damage its done could only have come from a very well connected source, i.e. government. Litvinenko enjoyed British citizenship. It could therefore be interpreted as an act of war. Alternatively if the Po210 was not supplied by some government agency it means a criminal or terrorist organisation can obtain it. Thats even more alarming.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Nov, 2006 07:15 am
We use polonium for optical chemistry property detection. (It develops a specific "doping" pattern .
We buy it as Bismuth 210 . SO, \\My feeling is that he was not poisoned by Po210 but by Bi 210. The first order decay of Bi 210 includes Thallium.
Because Bismuth 210 only has a 5 day half life, you can deliver it as a lozenge or in a cream soup. (All assumes that there are no Beta detectors nearby)

iIts 37 billion george. I agree with Georgeob, the LD for thallium is rather small and beats the time needed to die of radiation poisoning. If you recall, they said that he tested positive for thallium.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Nov, 2006 11:14 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Its not just that George. Enough Po210 to do the damage its done could only have come from a very well connected source, i.e. government. Litvinenko enjoyed British citizenship. It could therefore be interpreted as an act of war. Alternatively if the Po210 was not supplied by some government agency it means a criminal or terrorist organisation can obtain it. Thats even more alarming.


It is likely (but not certain - see Farmerman's comment) the the Pol;onium (if that is what did him in) was produced in a government weapons, fuel processing or high energy beam research facility. However that doesn't mean a government administered the poison. There was a great deal of nuclear material susceptably to unauthorized sale/theft or deliberate release following the collapse of the former Soviet Union.

I will readily concede that unnatural mortality among professed critics of President Putin seems to be remarkably high at the moment. If you interpret the action as an act of war, what response would you wish to see????

Saddam Hussein had an earlier history of interest & investment in nuclear processing, as well as a well-organized WMD program. Most of it was destroyed during/after the Gulf war, but our intelligence still credited him with the intent to restore it. He had lots of money through the corrupt UN food program and had successfully bribed the French government to provide him cover and protection in the UN. We didn't find much after the invasion, but the materials could easily have been transferred to Syria or Iran just before hostilities (as Saddam did with his Air Force during the Gulf War.).

You appear to me to have applied a different standard to Iraq than you imply now. Perhaps you could hire Hans Blix to protect you.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Nov, 2006 11:42 am
Somehow all this reminds my of 1978, when the Bulgarian dissident Georgi Markov was killed by a poison dart filled with ricin and fired from an umbrella in London - only the weapons changed by now, but the tabloids acted similar as today and it took ages until it was definetely found out and ... ...
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Nov, 2006 03:20 pm
if you flew BA on certain european routes recently , you are advised of a possible contamination .
the BBC reports :
...BRITISH AIRWAYS CHECKS PLANES...

this is looking more hairy as time goes by .
there seem to be so many theories out there speculating on posssible motives , it's hard to keep track of it .
certainly takes the appetite away from eating sushi or flying BA .
i think BA may take quite a hit from this nasty business .
hbg
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Nov, 2006 04:54 pm
georgeob1 wrote:


I will readily concede that unnatural mortality among professed critics of President Putin seems to be remarkably high at the moment. If you interpret the action as an act of war, what response would you wish to see????

Saddam Hussein had an earlier history of interest & investment in nuclear processing, as well as a well-organized WMD program. Most of it was destroyed during/after the Gulf war, but our intelligence still credited him with the intent to restore it. He had lots of money through the corrupt UN food program and had successfully bribed the French government to provide him cover and protection in the UN. We didn't find much after the invasion, but the materials could easily have been transferred to Syria or Iran just before hostilities (as Saddam did with his Air Force during the Gulf War.).

You appear to me to have applied a different standard to Iraq than you imply now. Perhaps you could hire Hans Blix to protect you.
I really dont see any parallel with Iraq or Saddam. My point was simply that IF the russian govt is implicated (and personally I dont think they had anything to do with this), then its an attack on Britain. And a serious attack at that. What to do? well we could declare war on the Russian Federation, or we could pretend it really doesnt matter and do nothing, or do as we are doing i.e. criticising Russia whilst stressing its a police matter and investigations are on going...(for as long as it takes the fuss to die down).
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kitchenpete
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Nov, 2006 05:01 pm
Quote:
Tony Blair said yesterday that no "diplomatic or political barrier" would be allowed to stand in the way of the investigation into Mr Litvinenko's death. At a press conference while en route to a Nato summit in Riga, Mr Blair said the death was being treated as a "very, very serious matter".


From Berezovsky tribute to 'brave and honourable' friend Litvinenko, Guardian Unlimited
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 10:45 am
radiation now found at 12 sites in London.

several aircraft also contaminated.

If this had happened in New York there would be another war by now.
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 10:47 am
Two of the planes are Russian, apparently.

This'll all be covered up big time very soon.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 10:52 am
Quote:
WHICH PARTS OF THE AIRCRAFT WERE CONTAMINATED?

This is a key question which authorities have not answered. If radiation was found in a lavatory, it could indicate that someone had ingested the poison. Anyone who ingested Polonium 210, as Litvinenko did, would almost immediately show traces of it in their urine. But if radiation was found in the aircraft hold, it could have leaked from a package. An independent British nuclear expert, John Large, said that would be surprising because the manufacture of Polonium 210 is a highly complex process suggesting the involvement of some kind of state agency. "If it was manufactured by the state, clearly it would have been packaged so it wouldn't leak." Another mystery puzzling experts is why as many as five aircraft may have been contaminated
reuters
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 02:54 pm
just watched interview with a chemistry professor on CBC-TV .
he explained that minute amounts of polonium 210 are used to make "cling-free" products and that it is also used in the manufature of automobile sparkplugs !
hbg

...POLONIUM SPARKPLUG...
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 05:27 pm
It does have some legitimate industrial uses but to get enough to kill someone requires the resources of a cyclotron and a radiochemical lab.

Polonium is weird. It gives off 140 watts for every gramme. It also migrates all over the place. It can literally climb out of a container!

I think someone is trying to smear the Russian government.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 10:36 am
Yipes -

Radioactive Isotope Found in Associate of Dead Spy, U.K. Says
By Alex Morales

Dec. 1 (Bloomberg) -- The radioactive isotope Polonium-210 has been detected in a person close to former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko, who died last week after the substance entered his body, the U.K. Health Protection Agency said.

The HPA was ``informed this morning that tests have established that a further person, who was in direct and very close contact with Mr. Litvinenko, has a significant quantity of the radioactive isotope Polonium-210 in their body,'' the agency said today in an e-mailed statement.

While the agency didn't identify the person, Sky News and the British Broadcasting Corp. said it is Mario Scaramella, an Italian academic who met with Litvinenko on Nov. 1, the day he first reported feeling ill. Spokesmen for the HPA and London's Metropolitan Police declined to identify the person.

Scaramella on Nov. 21 identified himself as the friend who had met with Litvinenko at Itsu, a sushi restaurant on London's Piccadilly, the day the former spy became ill. Scaramella said he and Litvinenko had both received e-mailed threats days before the former spy's illness began.

Litvinenko died on Nov. 23, and pathologists today are performing an autopsy on his body to determine the exact cause of death and establish how the radioactive isotope entered his body.

To contact the reporter on this story: Alex Morales in London at [email protected] .

Last Updated: December 1, 2006 10:30 EST

source
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Dec, 2006 10:40 am
Hmm, I think we're past suicide as what's possibly going on.
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