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Alexandr Litvenenko killed by polonium 210!

 
 
smorgs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 11:16 am
There will never be a definitive account of what has really happened...

I must admit, when I first heard about the disc shaped objects, I thought maybe he had ingested them himself, to bring some much needed attention on Putin...

It's possible?

I wouldn't trust anything I read coming from the Russian press - they are not free, criticism of Putin is suppressed.
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Lord Ellpus
 
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Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 11:38 am
All this stuff reminds me of the excellent series that's on TV at the mo.
"The State Within". Anyone seen it?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 11:57 am
smorgs wrote:
There will never be a definitive account of what has really happened...

I must admit, when I first heard about the disc shaped objects, I thought maybe he had ingested them himself, to bring some much needed attention on Putin...

It's possible?

I wouldn't trust anything I read coming from the Russian press - they are not free, criticism of Putin is suppressed.
He could not possibly have swallowed the mysterious objects without knowing about it...unless he didnt know about it. Hypnosis? Forced administering whilst temporarily drugged? John Reid stressed the police were still treating it as a suspicious death i.e. nothing ruled in or out. But if he committed suicide, would he really want to die a long drawn out and very painful death? On the other hand if he was killed because he knew too much, a slow acting poison isnt going to stop him talking, just the reverse.
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 12:01 pm
Could be punishment for his previous talking... but by whom?
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smorgs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 12:03 pm
Hmmm...

I see what you're saying...

But don't you think it's a bit far-fetched to suggest he could have been hypnotised into swallowing the objects?

We know that people have strong enough feelings to blow themselves and innocents to smithereens... so why not a death that will take long enough to damage the reputation of your enemy enough to effect change?

Seems perfectly plausible to me - he knew he was a marked man anyway...

x
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 12:09 pm
Oh, I'll agree that's plausable.
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smorgs
 
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Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 12:20 pm
Trouble is...

We don't know if the story of 'the discs' is true. That could be planted, the suggestion of suicide... certainly worked... it's a viable theory.

But there is also an inherent suggestion of mental health issues - isn't that the way Russia has dealt with dissidents in the past?

It's stinks of Putin...
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 12:24 pm
smorgs wrote:

But don't you think it's a bit far-fetched to suggest he could have been hypnotised into swallowing the objects?
sure its far fetched. But the secret services do all sorts of things no one would believe. Thats why they do them.


thats why the information warriors at the BBC and CNN tell the truth, so when its necessary to tell a lie, you will believe it.

[You know I've heard hardly a word of sympathy, except from Vladimir Putin, for Litvinenko or his family. 500 people phone NHS direct worried they've swallowed a nuclear warhead component, but no one seems to give a damn about the devastated wife son and father...now in "protective custody"]
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 12:29 pm
An interesting feature oof Po;onium-210 is that it is a very active emitter of alpha particles (Helium nucleii). This form of radiation is o neglicible hazard as an external source, because it doesn't penetrate the skin (or even a sheet of paper, as can be easily demonstrated in a simple expiriment).

However, if it is ingested in the body it can be a very serious and deadly, depending on the mode of ingestion and where it is deposited in the body, based primarily on its chemical properties. Alpha emitters that end up being deposited by the body in the bone marrow blood formiing cells can be feadly, as was demonstrated in this case.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 12:33 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
An interesting feature oof Po;onium-210 is that it is a very active emitter of alpha particles (Helium nucleii). This form of radiation is o neglicible hazard as an external source, because it doesn't penetrate the skin (or even a sheet of paper, as can be easily demonstrated in a simple expiriment).

However, if it is ingested in the body it can be a very serious and deadly, depending on the mode of ingestion and where it is deposited in the body, based primarily on its chemical properties. Alpha emitters that end up being deposited by the body in the bone marrow blood formiing cells can be feadly, as was demonstrated in this case.
well thanks for the physics and physiology but we know this. What we dont know is the why and the how and the whyfor, in short what the **** is going on.
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smorgs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 12:34 pm
So, would ingestion or injection have the same effect and outcome?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 12:51 pm
smorgs wrote:
So, would ingestion or injection have the same effect and outcome?
I think so. Also via an open wound. Once it gets into the blood stream its transported all over the body. The alpha particles from Po causes intense local ionisation resulting in free radicals which destroy (poison) the body's cells.
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 12:56 pm
No doubt these materials could have been provided by any government with access to nuclear fuel processing facilities. However, considering the small quantuity required and the ease of external handling it, there is no reason to exclude any organization with sufficient money and motivation from doing so.

The collapse of the Soviet Union offered numerous opportunities for loss of control of such materials. The U.S. spent a good deal of money funding Soviet scientific and security facilities and even purchasing large quantities of such materials, just to prevent this. Something to think about as we contemplate Iran's new fuel processing capability, and other potential large-scale uses of these materials. This is an aspect of the problem that has implications well beyond the case at hand.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 01:01 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
smorgs wrote:
So, would ingestion or injection have the same effect and outcome?
I think so. Also via an open wound. Once it gets into the blood stream its transported all over the body. The alpha particles from Po causes intense local ionisation resulting in free radicals which destroy (poison) the body's cells.


Not necessarily. Some of these nuclides are harmless if introduced into the digestive tract, because, owing to their chemical properties, they are not absorbed in the body. However their oxides have the physical properties of talcum powder, and are easily aerated. If they are inhaled they are absorbed into the bloodstream, and become deadly. (This is the case for Plutonium, also an alpha emitter)
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 01:12 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
No doubt these materials could have been provided by any government with access to nuclear fuel processing facilitiesfor loss of control of such materials.


I'm not sure if this is a fake - but I do know (from a report in the Albuquerque Journal) that such stuff can easily be found in the public ...

http://i10.tinypic.com/30vmcjr.jpg

But not by Steve, LE or me for example ...

http://i12.tinypic.com/3y8669w.jpg
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 01:18 pm
I don't know the source of your link Walter, but you could be right. There is certainly a very large market for some strong gamma emitters (cesium-135 is an example) used in medical radiology treatments and even as industrial sources for X rays of large welds in structural steel and like applications. I don't know of any practical applications of alpha emitters, specifically for that property, however there are numerous conventional applications for such emiitters, some found in nature such as Thorium, just for their normal physical properties.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 01:25 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I don't know the source of your link Walter, but you could be right.


Some people, whose collegues wear uniform, know even a couple more :wink:

And indeed: opposite to Europe, it's quite easy to get in the USA ...
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 01:51 pm
There is a difference between what one can get openly and under the table. The evidence does not suggest that Europe is at all free of this problem.

If your point is that Americans in most things enjoy more freedom and less government interference in thier lives than Europeans, I will agree.
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smorgs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 01:59 pm
I think Walter was referring to the disparity in availability...
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 01:59 pm
None of such, George, wa my intend.

It's just a fact that you can't get a lot of things legally here, which are sold more or less over the counter in the USA.


And vice versa. (Like guaranteed not genetically modified food, raw milk cheese ... :wink: )
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