65
   

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 08:03 am
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
real life,

People have been trying to tell you that speciation does not work the way you describe.


Yes I know speciation doesn't work.

That was pitiful RL. You've stooped to a new low in blatant misrepresentation. You should be ashamed.


Do I HAVE to insert a smilie every time I am kidding?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 08:11 am
ehBeth wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
He only needs to be able to breed with living contemporary members of the species, who in turn met the same requirement when they were born, who in turn met the same requirement etc. stepwise back to the original X.

That is incorrect.

You are applying finite rules to infinite sets. Your logic is invalid.



It's interesting to see real life having the same difficulties here as elsewhere. I'd read this earlier, but hadn't picked up on the similarity with his insistence that there are only yes/no answers to questions which do not necessarily lead to yes/no responses.

Very binary approach. Toggle up. Toggle down.


Hi ehBeth,

Blame this 'approach' on many in the scientific field who came before me.

I am not the one who developed the definition of 'species' as being dependent on whether one can or cannot interbreed.

btw Not having any 'difficulties', but a lot of fun. Cool
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 08:16 am
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
real life,

People have been trying to tell you that speciation does not work the way you describe.


Yes I know speciation doesn't work.

That was pitiful RL. You've stooped to a new low in blatant misrepresentation. You should be ashamed.


Do I HAVE to insert a smilie every time I am kidding?

Do I? Wink
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 08:23 am
real life wrote:
parados wrote:
"Species" is an arbitrary line drawn to try to define an observation.


Hmmmmm. Maybe you have been listening after all.

This is a point I've made on several occasions (but have been loudly booed by evolutionists for doing so. Be careful who is nearby when you say it.)
Really? WHere did you do that? I have seen your ridiculous arguments but no statement of species being an "arbitrary line".
If you really think that then your questions have been disingenuous if not out right lies. It seems the other posters that called you a liar were probably correct since you were making statements that you did not believe and knew to be false.
Quote:

The dividing 'line' between species is typically the issue of interbreeding.

parados wrote:
species CAN breed outside their own species


Another point I've made on more than one occasion. You're doing well.
If you made that point then what the hell is your argument that Y can't exist without other Y? Let's all pretend real didn't make the statements he made but made the opposite statements.
Quote:

But what often happens is that eventually they are reclassified into one species .

And I would not be surprised to find that the number of interbreeding 'species' is higher than the 10% you quoted.

This is very bad news for evolutionists, because the fewer species there are, the less 'speciation' is found to have occurred.

What utter nonsense on your part..
The number of living creatures, past and present remains the same whether you count them as 10 species or 1 billion species. The variability of those creatures remains the same. How we define species doesn't affect how the creatures have varied. How much you want to use semantics to try to defend your narrow opinion doesn't change the reality of evolution and how creatures have changed. Where we put the arbitrary definition species doesn't make evolution go away. There can be little doubt that as creatures evolve eventually some descendents can not mate with other descendents.


1. Are all creatures descended from one ancestor?
2. Is it true that those descendants can't all interbreed?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 08:35 am
parados wrote:
Who's dodging?

There are no recorded instances of fertile male mules, however there are several instances of fertile female mules.

Quote:
While the disparity between parental chromosomes satisfactorily accounts for sterility in male hybrids, it does not explain the occasional fertile female able to produce several offspring with noE. asinus traits.


http://www.springerlink.com/content/x065044271121628/




Yes and that is very bad news also for evolutionists, who like to pretend that genetics is very well understood , and that as a result evolution is a slam-dunk.

As one prominent evolutionist bragged:

parados wrote:
It's simple genetics.


The fact is that over 90% of the function of the human genome is unknown, and the case is much worse with most other critters.

If you think that sterile hybrids and the occasional odd case of a fertile one will provide major driving forces for evolution , you're in for a disappointment.

I don't even think that most evolutionists will go along with you on that one.

They have put most of their chips on geographical/sexual isolation. And as we've seen , that shifting sand isn't much support either.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 08:47 am
real life wrote:
As one prominent evolutionist bragged:

parados wrote:
It's simple genetics.


That's bragging? Did you forget to insert a smilie, RL?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 08:58 am
parados wrote:
real life wrote:
parados wrote:
"Species" is an arbitrary line drawn to try to define an observation.


Hmmmmm. Maybe you have been listening after all.

This is a point I've made on several occasions (but have been loudly booed by evolutionists for doing so. Be careful who is nearby when you say it.)
Really? WHere did you do that? I have seen your ridiculous arguments but no statement of species being an "arbitrary line".
If you really think that then your questions have been disingenuous if not out right lies. It seems the other posters that called you a liar were probably correct since you were making statements that you did not believe and knew to be false.
Quote:

The dividing 'line' between species is typically the issue of interbreeding.

parados wrote:
species CAN breed outside their own species


Another point I've made on more than one occasion. You're doing well.
If you made that point then what the hell is your argument that Y can't exist without other Y? Let's all pretend real didn't make the statements he made but made the opposite statements.


Acknowledging the fact that the line between species is dependent on the definition taxonomists decide on; and also that that line is sometimes drawn inaccurately and must be redrawn when it is learned that the critters actually DO interbreed -----

-- in no way changes the fact that if a critter is born that cannot interbreed with his contemporaries , then no family line will follow.

And if a critter CAN interbreed with his contemporaries of the same species, then by definition, no 'new species' has been begun.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 09:02 am
wandeljw wrote:
real life wrote:
As one prominent evolutionist bragged:

parados wrote:
It's simple genetics.


That's bragging? Did you forget to insert a smilie, RL?


Yeah. Probably should have. :wink:

Hope you're doing well, wandeljw.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 04:58 pm
farmerman wrote:
Funny how RL can bluster and object, but it always boils down to this,"How can you ustilize your worldview in applied science?"


No, actually what it boils down to is:

When the 'line' is crossed, and a brand new member (the first) of a brand new species arrives:

How is it a 'survival advantage' to be unable to breed with others?
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 07:11 pm
http://lancelet.blogspot.com/2006/01/species-is-as-species-does-part-iii.html

Species is as species does... Part III - It's all creationism!
Creationists make much of the fact that biologists have been unable to satisfactorily define what a species is. Since, after all, the concept of a species is part of the 'evolutionist lingo', isn't it? I agree, it has become embedded in the lexicon of biology in general and when evolution is the subject of discussion, the term 'species' is likely to be used. The history of the term 'species' in biology may surprise you.

The term 'species' is actually a creationist concept.

It was formalized by the father of taxonomy, Carl von Linné (Carolus Linnaeus) an 18th C. Swedish naturalist. The concept of a species was meant to embody the original created kinds (I've used the term kind here on purpose which will become evident later). The representatives of species today were supposed to be descendents of the original pairs created by God on creation week. The original pairs were the original Platonic archetype that formed the essence of the species. This has led to a long-established tradition that continues in taxonomy and museum collections to this day: the type specimen. Type specimens are meant to represent the platonic archetype of the species and form the reference for all other studies on the taxonomy of that species. Species were unchanging, except in that they were only an approximation of their original ancestor.

Just as we could not build a chair that was the archetypal chair (it would always be in some way imperfect), we could not have individuals that were the archetypal species. However, they never deviated far from their essential archetype.

Darwin changed all that.

He showed that a species was not as clear cut as we might have thought. As taxonomists were faced with difficulties (and often contradictions) in their classifications of 'species', Darwin sought an explanation. The first thing he did was point out that species were difficult to classify because the boundaries which we assumed were there were, in fact, not there. Species often graded into one another, or were separated by trivial characters that were variable from one individual to the next. In essence, species as we knew them, were not real.

Evolutionary biology aims to explain how the diversity of life arises. The reality is that evolutionary biology came to be when a system of classification of that diversity was already established - based on creationist concepts. This diversity is classified into 'buckets' of variation. The smallest buckets (and therefore should include the most limited variation) is the species. Traditional taxonomy places species within genera, genera within families etc. Ergo, the task of evolutionary biology is to explain the origins of these buckets - the origin of species, genera, families, classes...

The historical reality is that evolutionary biology has inherited a creationist concept and tradition of taxonomy. However, by Darwin's time, that tradition had become so well established that nobody thought to reorganize it. Museums all over the world were loaded with hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of type specimens and counting. The task of overturning this infrastructure would have been colossal. I doubt it would have crossed anyone's mind!

So today, evolutionary biology deals with terms that are conceptually different from the definitions of their historical antecedents. 'Species' doesn't mean what it meant 200 years ago. The reality that biologists have to deal with is that no single, universally satisfactory definition of a species seems to exist. This has been the problem ever since Darwin.

The fact that creationists point out that biologists have been unable to define a species is ironic. If evolution is true, and species are related to one another, grades between species and the difficulties in drawing boundaries between groups ought to be observable. We can't have infinitely many gradations, as some creationists request, because the world cannot support infinitely many species any more than it can support infinitely many individuals. The problem of such definitions is one of the principle reasons why Darwin thought that evolution was in fact occurring.

Why do creationists proffer this challenge, then? Well, it seems to stem from a psychology of knee-jerk antagonism. It doesn't seem to matter what, as long as evolutionists face a challenge or a problem, creationists wish to point it out and spin it as though this were somehow evidence of a theory in crisis. It is, in fact, evidence of a theory at work.

The challenge usually comes out when evidence of species transformations in real-time are provided. Their reaction to this is that this is merely variation 'within a kind'. God only said he created the animals after their 'kind', but they were free to change somewhat after that. For instance, two species of island finch evolving is not the same as 'a fish turning into an amphibian' (as though evolution proposes that happened all at once). So, we generally ask them to define what a 'kind' is. Instead of responding in a meaningful way, creationists generally avoid answering by saying 'you can't define what a species is, either!'

No kidding. It was your lot that foisted this notion on us and we have dealt with it appropriately, showing that it doesn't exist and that species do in fact change. Now, the goalposts have slid one level of the hierarchy higher (conveniently to a level beyond a normal 'ecological time span' - or within the lifetime of a human being). The 'kind' is just a species. Whenever real-time evolution is pointed out, that will always be evolution 'within the same kind'. Creationists are here resorting to a modified version of archetypes, which has been shown repeatedly by ecology, genetics, and the fossil record not to exist in biology.

In sum, the concept of a species - indeed all of traditional taxonomy - is rooted in creationist and platonic concepts of static archetypes. Species definitions are difficult to obtain because species are not really bounded by these kinds of typological boundaries. Species, as we recognize them, are in historical continuity with each other and are therefore difficult to tease apart, especially when their divergence was relatively recent or ongoing. So, we have creationists to thank for all the problems that come with the concept of 'a species'. It's not the problem of but part of the cause of evolutionary biology.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 08:15 pm
It isnt the concept of "species" thats creationist, Mayr had adoopted the biospecies concept in 1942 and its still the working model, based primarily on reproductive isolation and the "largest" populational unit thriough which gene flow can occur. What IS Creationist ws Carl Linneaus's concept of "Binomial nomenclature' which was purely morphological based upon things that werent even dreamt of in Carl v's timerl's quote
Quote:
When the 'line' is crossed, and a brand new member (the first) of a brand new species arrives:

How is it a 'survival advantage' to be unable to breed with others?

Who said it was?? Now please answer my questions for once.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 06:13 am
This is still the best article on Mayrs Biological Species Concept (developed in 1942 and modified as needed to clarify against species collectivism and panspermiacs). I have this in my notebooks at home or school and I found it last night on the web. Its a bit wordy but an easy read for "armchair taxonomists" as he calls em. Dont be put off by the elitists quotes by Darwin to Hooker or some of Mayrs critics. Its a synthesis in expression , the whole of which should be understood rather than trying to nit pick at single lines of theory.MAYRS BIOLOGICAL SPECIES CONCEPT.

On a related subject, its my opinion that RL's obtuseness is merely forced by his beliefs(He cant really be open minded or hed lose the control that his religion demands) . I feel that hes smart enough to get the point, he just will be looking for ammunition to create some cracks in the plate. Thats good because it keeps science on its toes. If someone cannot completely explain the concept of species in plain english , then shame on us. However, if the arguments AGAINST are forced and derivative of some fantastic worldview, then thats something else again.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 06:39 am
real life wrote:
farmerman wrote:
Funny how RL can bluster and object, but it always boils down to this,"How can you ustilize your worldview in applied science?"


No, actually what it boils down to is:

When the 'line' is crossed, and a brand new member (the first) of a brand new species arrives:

How is it a 'survival advantage' to be unable to breed with others?

You continue on with the claim you say you disagree with..

not only are you disingenuous you are deliberately so.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 07:43 am
parados wrote:
real life wrote:
farmerman wrote:
Funny how RL can bluster and object, but it always boils down to this,"How can you ustilize your worldview in applied science?"


No, actually what it boils down to is:

When the 'line' is crossed, and a brand new member (the first) of a brand new species arrives:

How is it a 'survival advantage' to be unable to breed with others?

You continue on with the claim you say you disagree with..



parados,

What are you talking about?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 08:02 am
Pauligirl wrote:
http://lancelet.blogspot.com/2006/01/species-is-as-species-does-part-iii.html

Species is as species does... Part III - It's all creationism!
Creationists make much of the fact that biologists have been unable to satisfactorily define what a species is. Since, after all, the concept of a species is part of the 'evolutionist lingo', isn't it? I agree, it has become embedded in the lexicon of biology in general and when evolution is the subject of discussion, the term 'species' is likely to be used. The history of the term 'species' in biology may surprise you.

The term 'species' is actually a creationist concept.

It was formalized by the father of taxonomy, Carl von Linné (Carolus Linnaeus) an 18th C. Swedish naturalist. The concept of a species was meant to embody the original created kinds (I've used the term kind here on purpose which will become evident later). The representatives of species today were supposed to be descendents of the original pairs created by God on creation week. The original pairs were the original Platonic archetype that formed the essence of the species. This has led to a long-established tradition that continues in taxonomy and museum collections to this day: the type specimen. Type specimens are meant to represent the platonic archetype of the species and form the reference for all other studies on the taxonomy of that species. Species were unchanging, except in that they were only an approximation of their original ancestor.

Just as we could not build a chair that was the archetypal chair (it would always be in some way imperfect), we could not have individuals that were the archetypal species. However, they never deviated far from their essential archetype.

Darwin changed all that.

He showed that a species was not as clear cut as we might have thought. As taxonomists were faced with difficulties (and often contradictions) in their classifications of 'species', Darwin sought an explanation. The first thing he did was point out that species were difficult to classify because the boundaries which we assumed were there were, in fact, not there. Species often graded into one another, or were separated by trivial characters that were variable from one individual to the next. In essence, species as we knew them, were not real.

Evolutionary biology aims to explain how the diversity of life arises. The reality is that evolutionary biology came to be when a system of classification of that diversity was already established - based on creationist concepts. This diversity is classified into 'buckets' of variation. The smallest buckets (and therefore should include the most limited variation) is the species. Traditional taxonomy places species within genera, genera within families etc. Ergo, the task of evolutionary biology is to explain the origins of these buckets - the origin of species, genera, families, classes...

The historical reality is that evolutionary biology has inherited a creationist concept and tradition of taxonomy. However, by Darwin's time, that tradition had become so well established that nobody thought to reorganize it. Museums all over the world were loaded with hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of type specimens and counting. The task of overturning this infrastructure would have been colossal. I doubt it would have crossed anyone's mind!

So today, evolutionary biology deals with terms that are conceptually different from the definitions of their historical antecedents. 'Species' doesn't mean what it meant 200 years ago. The reality that biologists have to deal with is that no single, universally satisfactory definition of a species seems to exist. This has been the problem ever since Darwin.

The fact that creationists point out that biologists have been unable to define a species is ironic. If evolution is true, and species are related to one another, grades between species and the difficulties in drawing boundaries between groups ought to be observable. We can't have infinitely many gradations, as some creationists request, because the world cannot support infinitely many species any more than it can support infinitely many individuals. The problem of such definitions is one of the principle reasons why Darwin thought that evolution was in fact occurring.

Why do creationists proffer this challenge, then? Well, it seems to stem from a psychology of knee-jerk antagonism. It doesn't seem to matter what, as long as evolutionists face a challenge or a problem, creationists wish to point it out and spin it as though this were somehow evidence of a theory in crisis. It is, in fact, evidence of a theory at work.

The challenge usually comes out when evidence of species transformations in real-time are provided. Their reaction to this is that this is merely variation 'within a kind'. God only said he created the animals after their 'kind', but they were free to change somewhat after that. For instance, two species of island finch evolving is not the same as 'a fish turning into an amphibian' (as though evolution proposes that happened all at once). So, we generally ask them to define what a 'kind' is. Instead of responding in a meaningful way, creationists generally avoid answering by saying 'you can't define what a species is, either!'

No kidding. It was your lot that foisted this notion on us and we have dealt with it appropriately, showing that it doesn't exist and that species do in fact change. Now, the goalposts have slid one level of the hierarchy higher (conveniently to a level beyond a normal 'ecological time span' - or within the lifetime of a human being). The 'kind' is just a species. Whenever real-time evolution is pointed out, that will always be evolution 'within the same kind'. Creationists are here resorting to a modified version of archetypes, which has been shown repeatedly by ecology, genetics, and the fossil record not to exist in biology.

In sum, the concept of a species - indeed all of traditional taxonomy - is rooted in creationist and platonic concepts of static archetypes. Species definitions are difficult to obtain because species are not really bounded by these kinds of typological boundaries. Species, as we recognize them, are in historical continuity with each other and are therefore difficult to tease apart, especially when their divergence was relatively recent or ongoing. So, we have creationists to thank for all the problems that come with the concept of 'a species'. It's not the problem of but part of the cause of evolutionary biology.


OK, so it's all the creationist's fault, eh? Laughing

No prob.

Let's forget the word 'species' altogether, and talk about groups of critters that can interbreed.

If one member of such a group gives birth to a critter who CANNOT interbreed with the members of the group, can he start a new group?

What will he breed with?

If instead he CAN breed with members of the group, then he is still a member of this group, yes?

As long as descendants of this group can also still interbreed with the group, they are one of the members , are they not?

Tossing out the word 'species' doesn't solve the problem, does it?

But let's suppose evolutionists get very lucky. Even if a dozen members were to be born all at once that could interbreed only with each other, and not with the larger group, how would that be a survival 'advantage' ?

Would it not be a large DISadvantage to have one's breeding options severely limited to only a few out of a large group?

And how would they know which ones?( A dating service of some kind might be needed for these to hook up, eh? :wink: )

Or does this ability to distinguish members of the new group just happen to evolve at the very same time[/u], so that again we see evolution (like lightning) has to strike twice in the same place at the same time (such as with your goatsbeards)?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 09:03 am
This is a most interesting dance.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 09:16 am
neologist wrote:
This is a most interesting dance.
Laughing

I had thought my question to be a fairly basic one.

Hope you're doing well today.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 09:21 am
Coffee's on
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 02:20 pm
It IS the Creationists responsibility to at least adapt to the present flow of scientific knowledge, rather than living in the 17th and 18th centuries when everyone was attempting to find evidence of Creation and Floods etc. (They werent successful then either).

Your "questions" are circular and more often tautological. Answering them confers some credibility to your basic premise which is all wrong to begin with. Youve had ample evidence and compelling argument and yet youre unconvinced. I dont think the problem is with the others, and I give you credit to understand the well made points . Maybe Im just being too generous. Should thgis be developed more slowly for your benefit?
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 10:18 pm
real life wrote:

Let's forget the word 'species' altogether, and talk about groups of critters that can interbreed.

If one member of such a group gives birth to a critter who CANNOT interbreed with the members of the group, can he start a new group?

What will he breed with?



One critter that cannot breed will die.

But we're not talking about ONE critter. You may be, but that's not how this works. Individual organisms don't evolve. You are looking for a line drawn beteen Critter A and Critter A1 and there's no such thing. Populations evolve. Because individuals in a population vary, some in the population are better able to survive and reproduce given a particular set of environmental conditions. These individuals generally survive and produce more offspring, thus passing their advantageous traits on to the next generation. Over time, the population changes.


http://www.nap.edu/html/creationism/evidence.html
Darwin proposed that evolution could be explained by the differential survival of organisms following their naturally occurring variation--a process he termed "natural selection." According to this view, the offspring of organisms differ from one another and from their parents in ways that are heritable--that is, they can pass on the differences genetically to their own offspring. Furthermore, organisms in nature typically produce more offspring than can survive and reproduce given the constraints of food, space, and other environmental resources. If a particular off spring has traits that give it an advantage in a particular environment, that organism will be more likely to survive and pass on those traits. As differences accumulate over generations, populations of organisms diverge from their ancestors.
Darwin's original hypothesis has undergone extensive modification and expansion, but the central concepts stand firm. Studies in genetics and molecular biology--fields unknown in Darwin's time--have explained the occurrence of the hereditary variations that are essential to natural selection. Genetic variations result from changes, or mutations, in the nucleotide sequence of DNA, the molecule that genes are made from. Such changes in DNA now can be detected and described with great precision.
Genetic mutations arise by chance. They may or may not equip the organism with better means for surviving in its environment. But if a gene variant improves adaptation to the environment (for example, by allowing an organism to make better use of an available nutrient, or to escape predators more effectively--such as through stronger legs or disguising coloration), the organisms carrying that gene are more likely to survive and reproduce than those without it. Over time, their descendants will tend to increase, changing the average characteristics of the population. Although the genetic variation on which natural selection works is based on random or chance elements, natural selection itself produces "adaptive" change--the very opposite of chance.
Scientists also have gained an understanding of the processes by which new species originate. A new species is one in which the individuals cannot mate and produce viable descendants with individuals of a preexisting species. The split of one species into two often starts because a group of individuals becomes geographically separated from the rest. This is particularly apparent in distant remote islands, such as the Galápagos and the Hawaiian archipelago, whose great distance from the Americas and Asia means that arriving colonizers will have little or no opportunity to mate with individuals remaining on those continents. Mountains, rivers, lakes, and other natural barriers also account for geographic separation between populations that once belonged to the same species.
Once isolated, geographically separated groups of individuals become genetically differentiated as a consequence of mutation and other processes, including natural selection. The origin of a species is often a gradual process, so that at first the reproductive isolation between separated groups of organisms is only partial, but it eventually becomes complete. Scientists pay special attention to these intermediate situations, because they help to reconstruct the details of the process and to identify particular genes or sets of genes that account for the reproductive isolation between species.
0 Replies
 
 

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