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Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 06:42 pm
real life wrote:
The idea that Charles had a Eureka moment AFTER collecting scientific evidence, and suddenly came upon the theory of evolution (or developed it after many years of thought afterward) is laughable.


It is laughable because no one here claims that Darwin came up with the idea of evolution. Darwin's contribution was the concept of natural selection as an explanation for evolutionary change.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 06:49 pm
From Wiki:

Natural selection

Natural selection of a population for dark coloration.For more details on this topic, see Natural selection and Fitness (biology).
Natural selection is the process by which genetic mutations that enhance reproduction become, and remain, more common in successive generations of a population. It has often been called a "self-evident" mechanism because it necessarily follows from three simple facts:

Heritable variation exists within populations of organisms.
Organisms produce more offspring than can survive.
These offspring vary in their ability to survive and reproduce.
These conditions produce competition between organisms for survival and reproduction. Consequently, organisms with traits that give them an advantage over their competitors pass these advantageous traits on, while traits that do not confer an advantage are not passed on to the next generation.

The central concept of natural selection is the evolutionary fitness of an organism.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 07:47 pm
real life wrote:
The surprise is that so many to this day still see different shapes of beaks as 'firm evidence' of evolution.

Do different shapes of human noses also give firm evidence of evolution? After all, a larger nose may enable a man to inhale more oxygen and thus be more able to physically labor.

Or a big nose might be a subtle sexual attraction , and thus a benefit tending toward producing more offspring because.........well, never mind . There's already people who believe that nonsense as well. Rolling Eyes


I love your analogies RL. You seem to have a real flare for selecting things which seem related at the grossest level (beaks and noses), and extracting an invalid conclusion from the seeming relationship. Then you even throw in a joking sexual quip to catch the audience and move them along before they start to look too closely at the analogy... "nothing to see here, move along". Smile

Very nicely done. Your arguments are totally without validity of course, but it's not obvious at first glance, and the further you can drag the debate into details the fewer people will listen.

We need more people in science who understood this type of debating tactic and could latch onto similar ambiguities to construct glib sound bites.
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 09:20 pm
Ironically Ros, RL while trying to give an example to derail evolution, provides one of the many examples that support it.

A big nose depending on enviroment can have reproductive bennifits, in others a disadvantage. As control populations are separated by geography or even social elements, certain genetic traits begin to group and separate (taxation?).

Every genetic trait has some enviroment where it thrives or is at a disdvantage.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 04:15 am
Quote:
The idea that Charles had a Eureka moment AFTER collecting scientific evidence, and suddenly came upon the theory of evolution (or developed it after many years of thought afterward) is laughable.

Trendy intellectuals in Darwin's day believed in evolution WITHOUT evidence, holding to the idea for many years before Charles sailed south.
. As everyone before has reminded you, Darwin never had a Eureka moment. He had kept several huge notebooks on what he called "Transmutation" and never even used the term"my theory" until several years after hed returned. His ideas and understandings re: evolution began to mount after he was shown by John Gould that all his little bird of black and brown were finches, and not other species. SInce Darwin didnt even know what he was looking for, he didnt even note which islands the finches came from. Gould noted that "its quite curious that each bird species seems to occupy a separate island". Dr Owen had also noted that , after classifying the fossil mammals ," something unique had occured so that these fossil forms, though similar to forms of animals living today, occupy unique areas of geography" . Darwin merely began to compile these bits of evidence until he completed his work in the search for a "mechanism" for transmutation of species.
You fail to recognize that Darwin was the one who, despite Wallaces contributions, developed a theory about the mechanism of evolution. That was his great contribution. The fact that St Hillaire, Cuvier, Lamarck, Erasmus Darwin and a few others had written that animals "change in their countenances through time" doesnt constitute a testable , evidence heavy theory anymore than Ben Franklins Kite made him a leader in the laws of Electrical potential

As far as Erasmus Darwin, youve been long implying that, in your opinion, Charles "owes" the theory of nat selection to his grandfather. many of us had merely reminded you, in the past that Erasmus only mentioned the concept of evolution within the context of a long poem about life. I could go back and look for these entries of yours , if I had the desire. You must learn to live with your shout outs. They are a record and we hope that, above all, we maintain consistency , or else have good reasons to abandon previous positions to thus change our stories..
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 04:39 am
As an example of how mounting evidence gradually assisted in the development of Darwins theory, In the 1845 era, Darwin begn to take on Paley and the concept of "an intelligent designer". Around this point DArwin began to fully appreciate the huge pile of evidence hed amassed and that this presented clear evidence that species were not Immutable and therefore , not possibly intelligently designed. After all, Darwin asserted that a designer should have gotten it right in the first place rather than leaving evidence of all these "killed off" species in the fossil record. (And he made that assertion with barely a few percent of the fossil transitional species we have today).

Remember that, in DArwins day, most natural philosophers were ministers who preached on Sundays and then spent the rest of the week chasing butterflies. SO the very titles of Natural philosophy texts would be sort of like Paleys."NATURAL THEOLOGY--or EVidence of the Craetor ...". Paley was ignorant of genetics, the fossil record as we see it today, biogeography, and the normal other surrounding disciplines (In most cases such as genetics, , so was Darwin) . Paley did, however, keep true to his office and mix a little science and a whole lot of religion in his little book. If one would take oneself back to that time and be dealing with the limited fund of knowledge about biological evidence, PAleys book would be quite reasonable. Darwin himself was a convinced believer in PAley' hypothesis until almost 10 years after he returned from the BEagle voyage. At that point his own evidence allowed him to pronounce the heresy of transmutation and how it countered a belief in intelligent design as a component of Creation.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 06:15 am
real life wrote:
Charles' tailoring of his evidence to interpret it as supporting evolution should come as no surprise.


Leaving aside that horseshit about evolution being "trendy" in Darwin's time, and without evidence (read a bio of Jean-Baptiste Larmarck sometime, the man who first used biology in its modern sense, and preferably a bio that is not from a rabid creationist site)--this is laughably absurd.

Check out Alfred Russell Wallace sometime. He was from a working class family, and was born about the time that Darwin matriculated at Edinb. He received only a grammar school education, a few years which ended when he was 14. He learned surveying and geology from his brother, in the hope that he could find gainful employment. He later became a junior school master, when he met the naturalist Henry Bates.

Wallace did not move in trendy circles. He did not attend university. He was not in the social circles in which Darwin moved. He left school when Darwin was still on Beagle, and before Darwin published the account of his voyage. Not long after Darwin returned, and before his account of his voyage was published, Wallace went to Brazil to collect samples of flora and fauna, a means by which poor men interested in "natural philosophy" could make a scant living while pursuing their interest. He was in the Malay islands when he came to the same conclusion as Darwin from the evidence of the samples he was collecting. Like Darwin, he came to his conclusion based on his observations of morphology.

There is a train of scientific speculation and observation which lead from Lamarck to Darwin and Wallace and which lead to the theory of evolution. There was no "trendy" thinking which people sought to prove. A theory is far different than speculation, not least because a theory is predictive. Neither Darwin nor Wallace knew the first thing about genetics--no one did, and Larmarck's speculation about inherited traits happens to have been wrong. But a theory is only valid if it is predictive, and they could not have known that the theory would be confirmed by genetic studies. If the theory were correct, it would predict that the evidence would be found in areas other than morphology, and genetics has confirmed it.

Darwin and Wallace came to the same conclusions based on morphology while living and working on opposite sides of the planet. That is how science works--one bases one's conclusions on the evidence at hand, which is precisely what Darwin and Wallace did. If it had only been a case of confirming a "trendy" view, than Darwin would have sought to confirm what Lamarck speculated--but that is not what happened.

What is most pathetic about your goofy claims is that it is you who is attempting to cram evidence into your personal and idiosyncratic point of view. It is you who is willing to deny the abundant evidence unless you can twist if to make it appear to confirm your belief in the silly fairy tales of the Bobble. How charming and clever is your method.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 08:18 am
I particularly like the innuendo that Darwin somehow, faked, the evidence to somehow, fit a preordained theory of natural selection. That comes from a CReationist who hasnt yet given any basis for his own beliefs other than to try to nit pick on a number of areas of acience where data is scant or the theory just has to be held in abayance until more evidence is collected. However, having said that, the vast amount of data leads us (as it did Darwin) to CONCLUDE that natural selection is operant. Creationism requires the dispensing of so much interrelated science that each component just falls down flat.

Remember RL's attempts at justifying a staement based upon the discovery of Latemeria in the late 30's and then concluding that'
"absence of evidence doesnt mean evidence of absence"

BTW, the book I refered to earlier was the "Bridgewater Treatises" not "Chronicles". They are an interesting reead, mostly found in rare book rooms of U libraries.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 09:17 am
I believe creationists fear that we humans are only an outcrop from primates - which destroys all their hopes and dreams of an afterlife, and god's special creation.
SCARY!
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 12:10 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
You seem to have a real flare for selecting things which seem related at the grossest level (beaks and noses)


I wasn't the one who first suggested beaks were an example of evolution, ros.

But seriously, do you really think that since beaks come in different sizes and shapes that they therefore have the ability to transform themselves into something OTHER THAN a beak?

This is what evolutionists believe, is it not?

If that were true, we should see innumerable examples of evolution still in progress NOW[/u] , i.e. half formed (or transformed) organs, appendages, limbs and systems of every type and description.

These forming and transforming parts of critters should be everywhere, in all species and numerous variations and kinds within each species.

But we don't see that at all.

Let's give you an easy one. Which of the races in the human family is the most evolved, ros?

If you say 'none', then you obviously don't believe your own theory.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 12:14 pm
real life wrote:
This is what evolutionists believe, is it not?


No. First, there is no such thing as an "evolutionist." Trotting out a dictionary definition won't make it so--that's just evidence of pervasive christian propaganda. In the second place, no one is saying that a beak becomes something which is not a beak. You're attempting to play semantic games, and you're not very good at it.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 12:28 pm
Disingenuous Questions About Evolution (partial list)

Quote:
If humans descended from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?


Quote:
If evolution is true, why don't we see cats giving birth to dogs?


Quote:
You weren't there, so how can you know for sure that it happened?


Quote:
If the lab must be told the expected age of the sample before testing it, then why test it?


Quote:
Do you really think that since beaks come in different sizes and shapes that they therefore have the ability to transform themselves into something OTHER THAN a beak?


Quote:
This is what evolutionists believe, isn't it?


Quote:
Which of the races in the human family is the most evolved? (If you say 'none', then you obviously don't believe your own theory.)
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 12:31 pm
Just because we believe in evolution does not make us "evolutionists." Similarly, just because we believe in science, it doesn't make us "scientists." Your semantics is failing badly; as is your logic and common sense.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 01:26 pm
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
You seem to have a real flare for selecting things which seem related at the grossest level (beaks and noses)


I wasn't the one who first suggested beaks were an example of evolution, ros.

But seriously, do you really think that since beaks come in different sizes and shapes that they therefore have the ability to transform themselves into something OTHER THAN a beak?

This is what evolutionists believe, is it not?

If that were true, we should see innumerable examples of evolution still in progress NOW[/u] , i.e. half formed (or transformed) organs, appendages, limbs and systems of every type and description.

These forming and transforming parts of critters should be everywhere, in all species and numerous variations and kinds within each species.

But we don't see that at all.

Let's give you an easy one. Which of the races in the human family is the most evolved, ros?

If you say 'none', then you obviously don't believe your own theory.


I'm disappointed RL, your previous post was so elegant and subtle in its misrepresentation of the facts. This one just doesn't measure up.

You've over-used the straw-man thing so much that even a Kansas school board member could see through it.
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username
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 01:38 pm
Not to mention the fact that there's no such thing in the science as "most evolved". That's a racist, social concept used to justify some particular group's pretended right to higher status. I'm not surprised at all that real life would use it. Organisms have evolved to utilize their environment better. There's only "evolved", there's no "most evolved". It's not a race to an end point.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 01:42 pm
As I suspected , no one seems to have the guts to face what evolution would truly imply, if it were true.
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username
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 01:43 pm
And that implication would be?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 01:46 pm
username, It's no use asking real to explain anything that'll be in direct contradiction to his belief system. It's an area where they have a brain-lock, and will never trespass.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 01:55 pm
real life wrote:
As I suspected , no one seems to have the guts to face what evolution would truly imply, if it were true.


You lack the guts to face the utter nonsense of your scriptural basis for a description of the world.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jun, 2007 02:17 pm
real life wrote:
As I suspected , no one seems to have the guts to face what evolution would truly imply, if it were true.


I too am wondering, what does it imply? What don't I have the guts to face about evolution?

Or perhaps the problem is not in myself but in real life who feels he is omnipotent and is privy what others feel and know.

My guess is he can't come up with anything that evolution might actually "imply" that I don't have the guts to face.
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