65
   

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
Tobeasone
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2017 10:13 pm
@snood,
Quote:
I tend to trust men more who wrestle with things >

I have six snakes I wrestle with what things are you talking about?
Quote:
> instead of being so cocksure all the time. Especially about things like life and death and god and man. all the time.

I really don't if you were talking to me or just in general, but cocksure? I am definitely not cocksure! ...I know nothing that can't be found on your own...
But things like life, death, god and man I am a human sponge... I find it fascinating... If I knew it all, I wouldn't be here... I just love to learn...
snood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2017 10:54 pm
@Tobeasone,
It wasn't directed at you. It was a general statement, and it was self-explanatory.
Tobeasone
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2017 11:07 pm
@snood,
Thats cool...
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 01:40 am
@camlok,

A proof or disproof is a kind of a transaction. There is no such thing as absolutely proving or disproving something; there is only such a thing as proving or disproving something to SOMEBODY'S satisfaction. If the party of the second part is too thick or too ideologically committed to some other way of viewing reality [e.g. formerman...], then the best proof in the world will fall flat and fail.

In the case of evolution, what you have is a theory which has been repeatedly and overwhelmingly disproved over a period of many decades now via a number of independent lines reasoning and yet the adherents go on with it as if nothing had happened and, in fact, demand that the doctrine be taught in public schools at public expense and that no other theory of origins even ever be mentioned in public schools, and attempt to enforce all of that via political power plays and lawsuits.

At that point, it is clear enough that no disproof or combination of disproofs would ever suffice, that the doctrine is in fact unfalsifiable and that Carl popper's criteria for a pseudoscience is in fact met.

Once again for anybody who may have missed this earlier:

The educated lay person is not aware of how overwhelmingly evolution has been debunked over the last century.

The following is a minimal list of entire categories of evidence disproving evolution:

The decades-long experiments with fruit flies beginning in the early 1900s. Those tests were intended to demonstrate macroevolution; the failure of those tests was so unambiguous that a number of prominent scientists disavowed evolution at the time.

The discovery of the DNA/RNA info codes (information codes do not just sort of happen...)

The fact that the info code explained the failure of the fruit-fly experiments (the whole thing is driven by information and the only info there ever was in that picture was the info for a fruit fly...)

The discovery of bio-electrical machinery within 1-celled animals.

The question of irreducible complexity.

The Haldane Dilemma. That is, the gigantic spaces of time it would take to spread any genetic change through an entire herd of animals.

The increasingly massive evidence of a recent age for dinosaurs. This includes soft tissue being found in dinosaur remains, good radiocarbon dates for dinosaur remains (blind tests at the University of Georgia's dating lab), and native American petroglyphs clearly showing known dinosaur types.

The fact that the Haldane dilemma and the recent findings related to dinosaurs amount to a sort of a time sandwich (evolutionites need quadrillions of years and only have a few tens of thousands).

The dna analysis eliminating neanderthals and thus all other hominids as plausible human ancestors.

The total lack of intermediate fossils where the theory demands that the bulk of all fossils be clear intermediate types. "Punctuated Equilibria" in fact amounts to an attempt to get around both the Haldane dilemma and the lack of intermediate fossils, but has an entirely new set of overwhelming problems of its own...

The question of genetic entropy.

The obvious evidence of design in nature.

The arguments arising from pure probability and combinatoric considerations.


Here's what I mean when I use the term "combinatoric considerations"...

The best illustration of how stupid evolutionism really is involves trying to become some totally new animal with new organs, a new basic plan for existence, and new requirements for integration between both old and new organs.

Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, the specialized system which allows flight feathers to pivot so as to open on upstrokes and close to trap air on downstrokes (like a venetian blind), a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.

For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together, so that the chances of evolving any of these things by any process resembling evolution (mutations plus selection) would amount to an infinitessimal, i.e. one divided by some gigantic number.

In probability theory, to compute the probability of two things happening at once, you multiply the probabilities together. That says that the likelihood of all these things ever happening, best case, is ten or twelve such infinitessimals multiplied together, i.e. a tenth or twelth-order infinitessimal. The whole history of the universe isn't long enough for that to happen once.

All of that was the best case. In real life, it's even worse than that. In real life, natural selection could not plausibly select for hoped-for functionality, which is what would be required in order to evolve flight feathers on something which could not fly apriori. In real life, all you'd ever get would some sort of a random walk around some starting point, rather than the unidircetional march towards a future requirement which evolution requires.

And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such reature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.

Now, it would be miraculous if, given all the above, some new kind of complex creature with new organs and a new basic plan for life had ever evolved ONCE.

Evolutionism, however (the Theory of Evolution) requires that this has happened countless billions of times, i.e. an essentially infinite number of absolutely zero probability events.

I ask you: What could be stupider than that?

Fruit flies breed new generations every few days. Running a continuous decades-long experiment on fruit flies will involve more generations of fruit flies than there have ever been of anything resembling humans on Earth. Evolution is supposed to be driven by random mutation and natural selection; they subjected those flies to everything in the world known to cause mutations and recombined the mutants every possible way, and all they ever got was fruit flies.

Richard Goldschmidt wrote the results of all of that up in 1940, noting that it was then obvious enough that no combination of mutation and selection could ever produce a new kind of animal.

There is no excuse for evolution to ever have been taught in schools after 1940.

0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 01:45 am
@Tobeasone,
Quote:
I guess what I am asking here is this a debate between God and evolution?


No, it's a dialectic between rational science and evolution. Evolution is a bunch of bullshit and, at this juncture, it is only being defended by academic dead wood and total losers.


Chuck Darwin himself said that if anybody could ever demonstrate a single feature of a living creature which could not conceivably have arisen step-wise via mutations with each step representing some sort of an advantage over the previous, than his theory would crash and burn.
There is more than one choice for such a feature but,of all the things which could never possibly evolve, my pick for #1 is flight feathers.

Consider feathers, which come in more than one form. Down feathers serve for insulation and are not that much different from hair or fur. An evolutionist could talk about fur mutating into down feathers and not sound totally stupid. But flight feathers are so totally different from down feathers that you'd need TWO mutations to get to them i.e. one mutation to get from fur to down feathers and then another to get from down feathers to flight feathers.

http://creationexnihilo.weebly.com/uploads/2/4/9/9/24993473/2095641_orig.jpg

Flight feathers involve a complex system of barbules and hooks as the image shows to create the strength needed to bear weight. Down feathers don't have any of that stuff.

Flight feathers are asymmetric (one side shorter than other) and they pivot so as to open and let air pass through on upstrokes and close again on down-strokes and the short side is the locking side.

The question is, what kind of a mutation would cause down feathers to mutate into flight feathers ONLY ON THE CREATURE'S ARMS where they will be needed after other mutations turn those arms into wings??

Evolutionism basically amounts to a belief in magic. Flight feathers are one of the most easily grasped instances of this, but there are others which are just as bad.

0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 01:59 am
All versions of evolutionism require gigantic spaces of time and our school still teach, for instance, the dinosaurs died out something like 65 million years ago. Beginning in 2006, there have been a number of cases of soft tissue being found in dinosaur remains and there is no rational way to believe that soft tissue could lie around for even 1 million years and still be detectable. In several cases, such tissue has been subjected to radiocarbon testing and those tests have produced age estimates of 20,000 to 40,000 years, not exactly Genesis but vastly different from anything which an evolutionist would expect to find.

There is other evidence of a very recent age for dinosaurs as well, including a number of petroglyphs remaining in North America which show easily recognized dinosaur types..

http://kgov.com/dinosaur-soft-tissue#2011-PLoS

http://kgov.com/dinosaur-soft-tissue#research

http://kgov.com/2013-soft-tissue

http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html

http://crev.info/2015/06/dinosaur-soft-tissue-surprise/

http://creation.com/sensational-dinosaur-blood-report

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee-F3SyEOgY&list=UU8YPqOakq2guu_DtJ-NHyXg

The sauropod glyph at Natural Bridges, Utah, the Kachina bridge:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Vqm3Ry1f6M0/U6hMc6qihAI/AAAAAAAADZU/mvoF7jqDJyU/s1600/ancient27%252Chttpwww.genesispark.comexhibitsevidencehistoricalancientdinosaur.jpg
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 02:07 am
Quote:
Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution


Not only is there no proof of evolution, there are enough major disproofs that for anybody to go on with it at this point is intellectually dishonest. Anybody TEACHING this crap in schools is harming his/her students.

Aside from the question of pure science (the fact of evolution being a bunch of bullshit from a scientific point of view), there is also a question of morality and ethics, and that question is a very big and fundamental one. It is this Darwinian/Malthusians idea of viewing one's neighbor as a meat byproduct of random events which was behind the out-of-control arms race of the late 1800s and was primarily responsible for the two world wars and for the totalitarian systems which engendered them.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 02:15 am
Evolutionites claim that humans are descended from hominids such as the Neanderthal and most artwork depicts the Neanderthal as a kind of a poster child for kum-bay-ah religion, that is, as something just a little bit different from one of us. That turns out to be very far from the case. Neanderthal DNA is generally described as roughly halfway between ours and that of a chimpanzee. In fact, early human (Cro-Magnon) needles are fairly common while nobody has ever found the first Neanderthal needle; that is because a creature with a 6 inch long ice age fur coat simply does not require needles. Neanderthal eyes sockets and nasal areas were much larger than ours and substantially higher up on the face than ours. Their footprints are substantially different from ours, the rib cages were conical as is the case with the great apes, while ours are cylindrical. This (Vendramini reconstruction) is what a Neanderthal actually looked like:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-c9-TRhn4D-o/TdTxri7IVSI/AAAAAAAACcw/aZKwgK1Qttg/s1600/neanderthal-2.jpg
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 02:19 am
For any hominid to have ever evolved into a human, that hominid would have to have lost everything in the world which he needed to survive, including:

1. His fur, while ice ages were in progress
2. Almost all of his night vision (while trying to make it as a land prey animal)
3. Almost all of his sense of smell (while trying to make it as a land prey animal)

Anybody who can't come up with a better theory than that should give up on theorizing and take up carpentry or auto mechanics or some such.....
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 04:40 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
His fur, while ice ages were in progress
. Youre missing much of the fun gunga. While you keep posting your hackneyed Creationist propaganda science has been making some interesting discoveries in the main part of Africa. Far as we know, Africa remained a fairly tropical and hot Savanna during all four Pleistocene Ice Advances. Hair became an option.


Quote:
Almost all of his sense of smell (while trying to make it as a land prey animal)
. Why would anyone want to become prey? I have no idea what youre smoking lately but its messin with your ability to reason.
I wonder qwhere our senses of taste became more refined? Was it more a development that served as a "toxic detection system" rather than a sensual organ.

I really think that evolution explains these various transitional forms than does any crap that "Dr Dino" keeps strumming.

I think, over the years, weve managed to dismiss your following junk. I think the only reason you print it is hoping you can fool any newcomers.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 04:49 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
Beginning in 2006, there have been a number of cases of soft tissue being found in dinosaur remains and there is no rational way to believe that soft tissue could lie around for even 1 million years and still be detectable
Opinions are like assholes gunga. If you feel youve got somthing compelling, provide your evidence. Meanwhile Dr SChweizer has come up with sewverl "fossilization chemistry reactions that, aided by the haem functional group, yield leathery like "fossil evidence " for the tissue that she extracted in 2003 and began your Creationist orgasm"

We have evidence of all kinds of soft material that dates back 300+million years, like waxes, a bitumen fossils,organic rich Leaves of Glyssopteris from the PErmian have been fould pliable and "soft".


When ya claim something its always good to keep some evidence by your side rather than just plopping down some pronouncements from incredulity. Science really doesnt work that way. Thats why Vendramini is agreed to be a hoax.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 04:58 am
@Tobeasone,
Theres lots of scientists who "believe in a God". However, since theres no way we can either dismiss or add support of a god in research (and really, most often, reserach concentrates on one small aspect of the entire evolution spectrum), we really have no way to "hunt for gods hand"
Impossible.

SO you can state anything about "god's intercession and I have no way to develop a great argument".
So we muddle along with a presumed natural path of evolution ( there really arent many real scientists who try to force fit gods into their work, and those people we call the Intelligent Desiign (ID) bunch. However, every concept the IDers have so far proposed, have been pretty well refuted by real evidence against.
Sorta like Dr Behe's "Irreducible Complexity"

NOBODY in the sciences buys any of that crap that gunga just displayed--even the IDers.
0 Replies
 
ekename
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 05:41 am
@Tobeasone,
Quote:
Could not have not God created evolution?


Yes , you are correct.

It is entirely possible that your imaginary friend did not invent evolution or diction.
gungasnake
 
  -4  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 05:48 am
@ekename,



The question usually reads like: Is it possible that God simply uses evolution?

The answer is simple: God does not use broken tools.....




















the question
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 07:58 am
@Tobeasone,
Darwins gradual loss of faith has been written about many times. His original interests in Natural History were molded on the acceptance of the published work of William Paley. This view he gradually lost after sailing on the Beagle(In which one of his stated purposes was to observe "pockets "of creation). His growing disbelief(as a function of his growing interests in transmutation) unfolded as he began studying about predator/prey relationship , (mostly in the insect world), and seeing how various species were adapted to specific areas of the planet and nowhere else.
His growing agnosticism, seemingly became cemented when his 9 year old daughter, Annie died in 1850, almost 10 years before he released the "Origin...".His later works, including "Descent of Man, nd selection in relation to sex" were somewhat beyond mere agnostic views.
The Darwin Project is a compendium of ll of Chrles communication. Its an exhaustive collection ,a real treasure to the Darwin Scholars in our midst.

There's also (If I may engage in a bit of an encomium) a really good Wikipedia piece (that was co- authored by a close colleague) "The Religious views of Charles Darwin.
I recommend it

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2017 08:03 am
@Tobeasone,
Quote:
Can't blame him, we hadn't discovered quantum physics yet...
dont know what Quantum Chemistry (let alone Q Physics) has to do with anything. Genetics was yet to be developed as a science just few years after "Origin..."

We wouldnt have been able to map the relationships in the genomes till we had Xray diffraction , mass spectroscopy, Electrophoresis and SHRIMP. (none of which really relied on QP, although Quantum mechanics helped us somewhat to understand WHY the gizmos work.
Tobeasone
 
  0  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2017 06:04 pm
@farmerman,
I have to admit I have been out of it for about 10 years and haven't keep up to date... I use to buy lots of books but I guess now if you want to know something you just ask your phone or jump on your computer... I don't own one {a cell phone that is} but my wife does and I am always amazed at how fast and informative it is...

This is the first time that I have heard that evolution had been scientifically debunked... That's a pretty hard one for me to swallow... I do appreciate the intellect on this forum... I have be talking to some pretty low class people...
Quote:
don't know what Quantum Chemistry (let alone Q Physics) has to do with anything. Genetics was yet to be developed as a science just few years after "Origin..."

Boy this is a long one my friend... If you take an atom and look at it through a microscope, you will find three particles: protons, neutrons and electrons in a vast space with fluctuations of energy... The electrons... These can be compared in size and distance to our solar system and planets... There is 93 million miles between us and our sun... If you take a stronger microscope and look down into one of these particle, you will see more particles in a vast space with fluctuations of energy... We call these particles quarks... And every time you get a stronger microscope and look down into a particle, you will see just more particles in a vast space with fluctuations of energy... We could go into hadrons at this time, but I am trying to make a point... So as you can see there is no such thing as solid... Everything is made up of nothing but energy... Now! For you to be you, and me to be me , and there to be grass, trees, prizms to make that colors, this chemical reaction, and that one, and so on and so on; There has to be something saying go this fast, go in this direction, create centrifugal force, gravity, positive and negative forces, prizms to make colors, this chemical reaction and that one, weather and so on and so on... There has to be an intelligence... So this energy is an intelligent energy with a strong desire to go forth and create...

Quick note! When you look at an atom under a microscope it will change... If you don't look at it it won't change...

If Jesus existed I doubt if he was a liar... He said, you can do what can do and more... We are all Gods of the most highest... The facts {to me} is, that everything is made up of God, and man is this highest expression of God that exist on this planet and refuses to pay attention to this therefore creating the state of ignorance... People ignore themselves and the laws of nature and expect to be happy stuck deep in materialism seeking pleasure... Meditation {So God can interject in that gap between your thoughts} and introspection is the only way out of suffering... You have to remove the bad habits and thoughts that move you in the direction of sickness, disease and death and replace them with habits that move you in the direction of health, happiness, peace and longevity of life...

When Jesus was born they didn't have last names back then so he was Jesus of Nazareth, At some point he became Jesus the carpenter, then when he returned from his 18 year pilgrimage from going to monastery to monastery to become the greatest Yogi {teacher} that the world has ever seen...He became Jesus the fisher of men and then he was Jesus the Christ... Christ is a state of super human being... one who literally dropped the individual ego to let God come forth...

I use to have a problem with the saying {God was pure love and pure love was God...} This didn't sense to me, until I saw it... God is an energy that is propelled outwardly from the nucleus by a strong sense of an appreciation; it is the same energy that runs up and down your spine and gives you goose bumps when you hear a piece of music you really appreciation... But there are different levels of love, because there are different levels of appreciation, because there are different levels of understanding... It is rather easy to understand a piece of music... It's a little harder to understand all of life's experience... It is our contine lack of understanding, and support of our ego, and our contine judging, right or wrong, big and small, good and bad that keeps this energy from coming to to surface and healing us... This is why we meditate...
MontereyJack
 
  4  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2017 10:17 pm
@Tobeasone,
evolution has NOT been scientifically debunked. Gungasnakkke is a conspiracy theorist and a nutter. Farmerman knows the science backwafrds and forwards. Listen to him
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2017 11:09 pm
@Tobeasone,
Quote:
There has to be an intelligence.

The intelligence is nature and evolution. We evolved from the primate family.
http://humanorigins.si.edu/education/introduction-human-evolution

Somewhat of an analogy:
1. Karl Benz invented the first car.
2. We now have hybrids and electric cars.
Tobeasone
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2017 05:53 am
@cicerone imposter,
Cool read... Thanks!
0 Replies
 
 

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