65
   

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 09:08 am
@parados,
There is no formal interpretation of species, it is taxonomically defined in phylogenics, furthermore species has not been universally defined.

However, if there is a contemporary consensus to define species, aproximate calculations may be suggested, yet there may be assumptions.

parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 03:29 pm
@Anomie,
Since species isn't defined well enough, how do you substantiate any claim about species can/cannot evolve into other species?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 04:06 pm
@parados,
I thought that species involved the included being able to copulate and produce offspring.

0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 05:52 pm
All the overblown thoughts and words here have not made a dent against evolution. It merely illustrates the lengths some go to to justify personal denial.
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 05:53 pm
@Anomie,
Anomie wrote:

It is hostorcal science, being circumstantial, observing gravitation is direct.

Observing the attraction of mass is direct. The force of gravity is the theory for why we believe mass behaves this way. We have never observed a particle candidate for a graviton. Perhaps someday we will. Even then, gravity will still be a theory, not a law.

Theories don't become laws.
Anomie wrote:

Observations of micro evolution is direct, I am not certain if it is macro evolution may be direct, specifically speciation.

What happens in micro-evolution versus macro-evolution. I want to hear what distinguishes these processes such that you believe one has been observed, and the other hasn't.

Anomie wrote:

In the case for humans selection pressure has been prohibited by cultural phenomena, hence no macro selection pressure.

Speak science, please.

Anomie wrote:

Also, transitional fossil evidence constructed new theories of 'gradualism' that refute the previous.

The previous, which was what exactly? Evolution is a theory of bio-diversity built on the idea of common ancestry. How fast/slow do you think evolution moves?

Anomie wrote:

Acknowledge, genetic code =/= cultural consequence.

Example:
Humans anatomically flying =/= humans culturally flying

How is this relevant. I don't recall stating that humans have the genetic ability to fly.

Anomie wrote:

It is greedy reductionalism.

This is a silly argument.

Anomie wrote:

Quote:

Is what not evidence? Specifically.


Circumstantial evidence may infact increase the 'sufficiency' of evidence, whilst there is a modal of inference.

What about the word "specifically" escaped you?

Anomie wrote:

Quote:
It deserves ridicule, it's ridiculous. Waxing poetic about your misunderstandings about what laws and theories is not an argument.


I already stated that it is a genetic fallacy to deny theory to physical law, the antecedent conditions may be interpreted as a physical law, 'fact', hypothesis, or theory.

I don't believe you've demonstrated a solid understanding of the words "law," "fact," "hypothesis," or "theory."

As I stated, that evolutionary theory is not only accounting for new fossils, but actually predicting where fossils can be found and what characteristics they will have, sinks your boat.

Anomie wrote:

Does evolution satisfy the required conditions of a physical law, such as f=ma?

No. Evolution isn't a law. It's a theory.

Anomie wrote:

I personally interpret evolution as a 'fact' (not certainty) and theory, it does not appear to satisfy physical law.

Because it is not a physical law. It's a theory on bio-diversity. It's fact-ness has nothing to do with it being a law or a theory.

Anomie wrote:

Furthermore, cognitive bias deviates from logical consistency, you are increasing the logical fallacies, meaning you will deviate from truth.

You're in no position to dictate any of these terms. The derivation is when you avoid the evidence. The data supports evolution.

Anomie wrote:

Quote:
Just so we are clear, you understand that theories don't become laws. You got lost talking about gravity, and married the idea of law and fact fallaciously.


I have elaborated, and I also suggested this, prior to this post.

I'm simply skeptical you understand the scientific method and what the difference is. Being that people have had to explain it to you, and you're resisting, I think correcting your misunderstandings are the first step in you entering the topic.

Anomie wrote:

Quote:

Perhaps since you're new, you're unfamiliar with this thread. It was a response to a thread titled: "Don't tell me there's not proof for creationism." The person who started this thread understood very well the difference between "proof" and "evidence" but chose the word out of parity.


From my interpretation, proof may only exist in the spectrum of formation rules, such as semantics and mathematics, naturalism is a circular premise, meaning the 'deductive science' is infact an inductive basis.

Proof exists when an established criteria of belief is met. Some people don't want proof, so they establish unreasonable criteria, or move their goalposts. You're doing this.

Anomie wrote:

Are you a metaphysical naturalist?

I'm a boy named Sue.

Anomie wrote:

I am personally open to the concept of an unmoved mover, furthermore I believe in the mathematical universe and simulation arguement, however I am an ignostic (non cognitive).

Why are you open to the concept? Cognitive bias, perhaps? On the matter of non cognitive discourse, ante up, or get off the poker table.

A
R
T
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 06:27 am
@failures art,
Do you have a problem fa with the sexual implications of evolutionary science? You seem to be going to considerable lengths to avoid giving your views on that matter as you also do on your recommended way forward once we have all become persuaded by your other contributions.

I think your reticence on the sexual question is due to a pious Christian upbringing or shyness on the subject, which would not bode well in a science class, or an ignorance of the scientific aspects of the subject.

You're in good company mind you. The NCSE is in the same fix and its constant and irrelevant chatter about evolution is very much like that distracting chatter about alcohol and tobacco which never considers the effects of these substances on the general population as opposed to selected individuals.

We all know that a great deal of what you say is correct from a technical or pedantic point of view but how your conclusions impinge on society is the important thing and to blithely ignore those matters is profoundly irresponsible.

I have no problem with the proof of evolution but science requires that all aspects of the matter are on the table and any partial studies cannot be considered scientific at all. Partial studies, which you are engaging in, will always produce the conclusions you seek. They are essentially tautological.

Diversity in nature is the driver of evolutionary adaptation and diversity stems from mating. Which is why inbreeding is enervating to a species and why exogamy exists as an important institution even in primitive societies and, indeed, in the animal world.

0 Replies
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 12:06 pm
@failures art,

Again, anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle – something you have to assume but cannot prove.

Empiricalism induces the circle.

Furthermore, you must assume consistency, hence naturalism, however are you certain that backround independent entities, such as the physical constants are consistent, do you not believe in inflation?

If so, what of the consequent conditions, such as the suggested chaotic inflation concepts, the universe may end.

If there is no space, how are intervals operated?

Quote:
Theories don't become laws.


Does the antecedent conditions define the critreon?

The suggested law may have been a theory, by definition theories do not become laws, or I believe this to be the case.

Quote:
What happens in micro-evolution versus macro-evolution. I want to hear what distinguishes these processes such that you believe one has been observed, and the other hasn't.


Taxonomically, macro evolution is subject to speciation.

Micro evolution analyses allele frequencey, which entails natural selection.

Quote:
Speak science, please.


I do have knowledge in science, in fact more than I do in formal philosophy.

Humans are no longer subject to macro evolution, there is no macro selection pressure.

There is no genetic isolation, humans may fly to any region and reproduce, meaning the allele frequency of 'dominant' genes may never increase in the population.

Example:
Obese humans may culturally fly to any region and selectively reproduce, however can such humans hunt and evade predators, or have neurological conditioning to adapt and navigate in the natural environment.

Such stimulus of the paleolithic enables variation in the human gnome, cultural phenomena may prohibit such, humans no longer die from the lack of fitnss.

Quote:
This is a silly argument.


Are we arguing normatives, this is not politics?

Social science to natural science is another example of greedy reductionalism, such as attempting to naturally define 'mental illness', it is a fuzzy concept.

Emotions (Appeal to emotion fallacy) are null in regards to a positive analysis.

Quote:
What about the word "specifically" escaped you?


I am referring to circumstantial evidence.

Analogy: finding a hair sample (circumstantial evidence) at a murder scene increases the 'sufficiency' of evidence to trail against the murder (direct evidence) you have observed.

Quote:

I don't believe you've demonstrated a solid understanding of the words "law," "fact," "hypothesis," or "theory."


I am arguing by definitions, there is no darmacation error in this case.

Furthermore, fact =/= empirical fact.

Example:
All the men I have observed are mortal =/= If all men are mortal

A priori knowledge is prior to empirical systems, hence theory =/= theorem.

Theorems are axiomatic derrivations of proof.

Quote:
As I stated, that evolutionary theory is not only accounting for new fossils, but actually predicting where fossils can be found and what characteristics they will have, sinks your boat.


How does this refute the definition of circumstantial evidence?

Quote:
You're in no position to dictate any of these terms. The derivation is when you avoid the evidence. The data supports evolution.


Evidence is 'rational', not logical, is are arguement philosophy or science?

I am attempt to argue truth.

Again, emotions deviate from logical consistency, emotions do appear to be a product of an objective reality, however the consequent conditions are relative in this case, being prescriptive utters.

Can I assume that you believe in objective moral values?

Quote:
Proof exists when an established criteria of belief is met. Some people don't want proof, so they establish unreasonable criteria, or move their goalposts. You're doing this.


There does not appear to be informal proof, can you define a scientific proof, without substituting it for 'fact' or physical law?

Quote:
I'm a boy named Sue.


You are red herring, do you have irrefutable faith in naturalism?

Science assumes naturalism for methodology, meaning that there is religeous scientists, science is a formal system.
Quote:

Why are you open to the concept? Cognitive bias, perhaps? On the matter of non cognitive discourse, ante up, or get off the poker table.


All humans apear to be cognitively bias, however it may be excluded for arguementation for logical consistency, it self refuting to deny logic.

The scientific method requires empirical pressuposition, therefore it is illogical.

I am open to the concept of unmoved mover, being that it has been suggested that the universe may in fact be a product of zero (abstract object or conscious), or perhaps nothingness (empty set).

The unmoved mover, meaning a first causation by ex nihilo appears to be in fact infinte regress, neither are logical (non existence or infinite is illogical), furthermore axiomatic truths are not consistent with quantum mechanics, which may be a neccessary contradiction for cosmological truths to exist.

As for non cognitivism (quasi), I do not believe that ethical sentences express propositions, hence are not subject to bivalence.
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 12:09 pm
@edgarblythe,
You need only refute my arguementation, we may discuss this "personal denial".
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 12:26 pm
@Anomie,
Your argumentation is based on idiosyncratic criteria and idiosyncratic definitions. Since others do not share your idiosyncrasies, refutation is irrelevant.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 01:14 pm
@Anomie,
I don't feel compelled to set you straight, because you obviously are here to deny science, meaning you are likely unteachable and so not worth the time. But, you and spendius make good bookends. He will be glad to accommodate your raving.
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 01:37 pm
@wandeljw,
You must specify how my arguement satisfies such conditions.

How is idiosyncrasy defined, by a general consensus?

If this is the case, very well, refutation is "irrelevent", however acknowledge that this is a logical fallacy.
0 Replies
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 01:40 pm
@edgarblythe,
What is science, to you, is it truth, or knowledge?

Yes, it may be interpreted as an empirical truth, however empiricalism is not universality.

Do humans have infinite empiricalism?

What if there is a sentience in this galaxy or universe that has sense organs that are analogous to humans?

How is empirical truth defined in this case?

Also, I am not here to deny, I am consructing modality between formal and informal.

You appeal to 'rationality', however I am appealing to logic.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 01:43 pm
@Anomie,
If the sun burns out, will professional sport teams be able to play all their games at night?
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 01:48 pm
@wandeljw,
I do not understand the question.

What are you suggesting?
0 Replies
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 02:09 pm
@failures art,
To clarify my first quote (it did not entirely post, which is in bold):

Quote:
Observing the attraction of mass is direct. The force of gravity is the theory for why we believe mass behaves this way. We have never observed a particle candidate for a graviton. Perhaps someday we will. Even then, gravity will still be a theory, not a law.


By definition, direct observation of attracting bodies of mass is gravitation, and it may also be interpreted theoretically, hence a fundamental force.

It is an empirical fact to humans, however it is exclusive to empiricalism, therefore it cannot be a priori, such a logic.

Logic is general to specific inference, the circle deduces.


Again, anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle – something you have to assume but cannot prove.

Empiricalism induces the circle.

Furthermore, you must assume consistency, hence naturalism, however are you certain that backround independent entities, such as the physical constants are consistent, do you not believe in inflation?

If so, what of the consequent conditions, such as the suggested chaotic inflation concepts, the universe may end.

If there is no space, how are intervals operated?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 02:50 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
But, you and spendius make good bookends. He will be glad to accommodate your raving.


We could go on like that forever ed. you and wande make lousy bookends. I would need to ask wande whether he is glad to accomodate your ravings.

I don't think Anomie's arguments will make any headway with experts in the field. I think mine will. I'll take Dawkins on anytime. He's a sitting duck if he can't choose the debate conditions which he makes sure he always does.
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 03:08 pm
@spendius,
Dawkins has yet to refute Craig's arguements.

I do not believe a scientist can refute philosophical arguements, such as the kalam cosmological arguement, or that an athiest cannot believe in objective moral values.

However, I do personally believe that Dawkins is a fine scientist in his field of study.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 03:43 pm
@Anomie,
Anomie wrote:

Dawkins has yet to refute Craig's arguements.

I do not believe a scientist can refute philosophical arguements, such as the kalam cosmological arguement, or that an athiest cannot believe in objective moral values.


http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5705
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 03:58 pm
@wandeljw,
Yes, I already viewed this several months ago.

Craig elaborated, however I do not believe that there is creatio ex nihilo, it may be simply ex nihilo, meaning ex nihilo nihil fit may not be consistent, furthermore there is the uncertainty principle when attempting to measure virtual particles, consistently.

It is illogical to actualise non existence, being that it does not exist in the subjunctive spectrum (logical possibilities), therefore what is interpreted as 'non existent' does in fact exist from cognitive actualisation.

The unmoved mover is concept to acknowledge the antecedent conditions of a causation.

Infinite regress is no different, it is undefined by human cognitive faculties, however it may be logically expressed as a limit, such as black hole in Einstein's formulations.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 04:07 pm
@Anomie,
I'm not sure what you are getting at Anomie. Ordinary language is quite sufficient for disussions on evolutionary processes. It is a political question essentially.
 

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