65
   

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 08:51 am
@spendius,
Quote:
What's the meaning of meaning?


Rhetorical?

Or do you always use words you don't know the meaning of?

(I realize that question will fly right over your head. Sad, for someone that claims to be so well read. I'm sure Samuel Johnson would have understood it.)
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 09:45 am
@parados,
There are legions of philosophers studying the meaning of meaning. I have met a few. It looks a great niche to inhabit. They are called Linguistic philosophers. They had been years pondering what words mean when one of them had the bright idea of asking what "mean" meant. It being a word. Last I heard they are still wrestling with it in their salubrious quarters in Oxbridge.

Quote:
Johnson: "Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."


I take it you are on board with that? I am.

0 Replies
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 09:54 am
You cannot formally prove scientific methodology.

It has been interpreted as theory and fact, however it does not appear to satisfy the required conditions of a physical law, such as gravitation.

It is a 'rational' belief from empirical evidence, such as gravitation.

The theory ('gradualism' as an example) is open to interpretation.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 11:31 am
@Anomie,
There is no law of gravity/gravitation. Gravity is a theory to explain why mass is attracted to other mass.

You're making a critical error in downplaying the significance of formal theory. A theory is no small thing, and most things aren't even close to being a theory. A law is not something that a theory becomes over time.

A
R
T
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 11:48 am
@failures art,
The only law is that there is no law. Which is the obvious conclusion when human activity is compared with the rest of the universe.
0 Replies
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 12:28 pm
@failures art,
The phenomena, acknowledged as gravitation is a physical law, by natural, scientific definition, furthermore there is also theoretical interpretation, which increase the assumptions of this phenomena.

If your "formal theory" is cognitively synonymous to scientific theory, I argue that scientific methodology, such as natural or social practices cannot be formally proven, it is circular, being informal, a posteriori knowledge.

Example:
Axiom =/= physical law

What do you mean by "downplaying"?

My arguement does not suggest cognitive bias, and I personally do have faith in empiricalism.

Also, it is a genetic fallacy to deny a theoretical basis of being a possible scientific law or 'fact', yet I never did state the origins of evolution or gravitation, however macro evolution does not appear to be directly observable.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 01:03 pm
@Anomie,
Anomie wrote:

The phenomena, acknowledged as gravitation is a physical law, by natural, scientific definition, furthermore there is also theoretical interpretation, which increase the assumptions of this phenomena.

The behavior is a law--the theory is why the behavior exists. Gravity is a theory on why mass is attracted to other mass. It is the most supported theory with the most evidence, and despite it being a theory, we have great utility in treating it as fact since no competing theories present alternative explanations given the data.

Anomie wrote:

If your "formal theory" is cognitively synonymous to scientific theory, I argue that scientific methodology, such as natural or social practices cannot be formally proven, it is circular, being informal, a posteriori knowledge.

Example:
Axiom =/= physical law

What you're doing here is acknowledging that something like gravity is acceptable, but you're trying to distance yourself from evolution. Your method of doing this is to try and make gravity more than a theory, and make evolution "just a theory." The methodology for both is cut form the same cloth.

Anomie wrote:

What do you mean by "downplaying"?

You're assignment of the word "fact" is assigned to what you believe is law, and dismisses what is theoretical but demonstrable and predicable.

Anomie wrote:

My arguement does not suggest cognitive bias, and I personally do have faith in empiricalism.

I don't think you understand empiricism.

Anomie wrote:

Also, it is a genetic fallacy to deny a theoretical basis of being a possible scientific law or 'fact', yet I never did state the origins of evolution or gravitation, however macro evolution does not appear to be directly observable.

What does "directly observable" mean to you? The time scale in which this takes place is on the order of thousands of generations. Since no one person can observe this, is it not directly observable? What about the fossil record? It clearly provides a wealth of biological data.

Your use of "macro evolution" is a tell. Such terms are tailored for blushing creationists exposed to evidence.

A
R
T
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 02:22 pm
Gravity is only a "physical law" to the extent that the theory which supports it describes the phenomenon without being falsified. It is clear that Anomie does not know hat theory means in scientific usage.
0 Replies
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 02:55 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
The behavior is a law--the theory is why the behavior exists.

Yes, I agree, which I stated the assumptions of this phenomena increase, meaning how, or "why the behaviour exists".
Quote:
What you're doing here is acknowledging that something like gravity is acceptable, but you're trying to distance yourself from evolution.

That is incorrect, be it physical law, theory, or hypothesis, the concept of "acceptable" is fuzzy, it is not be operationalised by formal systems, it requires 'justification', and I do empirically accept such.

Here are the conditions for a physical law:
-True, at least within their regime of validity. By definition, there have never been repeatable contradicting observations.
-Universal. They appear to apply everywhere in the universe. (Davies, 1992:82)
- Simple. They are typically expressed in terms of a single mathematical equation. (Davies)
-Absolute. Nothing in the universe appears to affect them. (Davies, 1992:82)
-Stable. Unchanged since first discovered (although they may have been shown to be approximations of more accurate laws—see "Laws as approximations" below),
-Omnipotent. Everything in the universe apparently must comply with them (according to observations). (Davies, 1992:83)
-Generally conservative of quantity. (Feynman, 1965:59)
-Often expressions of existing homogeneities (symmetries) of space and time. (Feynman)
-Typically theoretically reversible in time (if non-quantum), although time itself is irreversible. (Feynman)

Quote:

Your method of doing this is to try and make gravity more than a theory, and make evolution "just a theory." The methodology for both is cut form the same cloth.

Yes, being that evolution does not appear to satisfy the required conditions of a physical.

Furthermore, I do not apply this "just a theory" interpretation, and I do support evolution, my personal nutritional practice is of the paleolithic concept, which has an evolutionary basis, however I distingish the spectrum of classification, these are natural scientific concept.
Quote:

You're assignment of the word "fact" is assigned to what you believe is law, and dismisses what is theoretical but demonstrable and predicable.

There may be a misconception, perhaps the 'darmarcation problem' of science.

My interpretation of fact is philosophical, I do not believe that there is a 'fact' in science, meaning 'scientific fact', therefore I apply physical law

Formal truth =/= scientific knowledge

However, physical law is satisfied by occhams razor, that is if you favour simplification.

Thiesm knowledge is a posteriori, yet it cannot satisfy a physical law, furthermore attemptimg to falsify a God hypothsis, perhaps by contingent practices appears to be an ad hoc hypothesis.

Quote:
I don't think you understand empiricism.

I argue that empiricalism is fallible epistemology, therefore it is informal.

Example:
x=/= if x
All the swans I have observed are white=/= if all the swans are white

Science is formal system, however the methodology requires empiricalism, such as the empirical cycle, hence it is induction.

Physical laws, such as gravity have not been formally proven to be consistent, backround independence is assumed, yet did the universe not inflate, are you certain that the 'physical constant' concepts, being invariant quantities are consistent, what of chaotic inflation theories?

A priori knowledge is infallible, being a deductive system.

From my 'rational' interpretation, I have faith in evolution, and I do personally interpret such as a 'fact'.

Quote:
What does "directly observable" mean to you? The time scale in which this takes place is on the order of thousands of generations. Since no one person can observe this, is it not directly observable? What about the fossil record? It clearly provides a wealth of biological data.

Fossil records are circumstantial evidence, the assumptions increase, meaning logical fallacies increase.

Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle – something you have to assume but cannot prove. - Godel

Quote:
Your use of "macro evolution" is a tell. Such terms are tailored for blushing creationists exposed to evidence.


This macro evolution concept is scientific, however I did already state that induction is circular.

Can you universally define the following by natural science:
Organism
Phylogenetics, such as the biological taxonomy of a species.
Evolution

Perhaps there is a scientific consensus, however there does not appear backround independence.

Social science further opens the circle, prescription being an example.



failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 03:33 pm
@Anomie,
The fossil record is circumstantial?

Being able to date a specific organism to a specific geographic location and observe it's physical traits is circumstantial to a theory on bio-diversity built on common ancestry?

Nope. You're talking way above your head.

A
R
T
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 04:06 pm
@failures art,
Induced inferences from fossil record to past existing organism satisfies the conditions for circumstantial evidence.

Do you dislike circumstantial evidence?

Is it not evidence?

You cannot refute my arguement by reducing it to ridicule, or to the individual, let us eliminate cognitive bias.

The truth of an assertion is proven by 'sufficient' evidence in this case.

This is not logical, be it direct, or indirect.

The topic stated proof for evolution, yet there does not appear to be proof for evolution or any natural science.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 04:13 pm
@Anomie,
Quote:
Social science further opens the circle, ....


And in the context of this debate it is the only circle of significance. That is because evolution directly impinges on social activity whereas all the other stuff doesn't unless socially chosen to do and also because all the terms and concepts are socially derived.

Before human social activity there was no evolution nor any universe. Such things came into existence, or began to make their way, about 6000 years ago. And so they both began at that time.

Like the Bible says.
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 04:20 pm
@spendius,
Cultural phenomena has been 'suggested' to be of 10,000-40,000 years ago, however 'civilisation' is neolithic, grains and fire are 'suggested' to be the environmental factors for a sustaining cultural basis, hence there is no longer macro selection pressure.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 04:32 pm
http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/a_message_from_jess_green.htm

You mentioned the evidence for evolution that you encountered in college was circumstantial. Welcome to the real world. Much (but by no means all) theoretical scientific knowledge is based on circumstantial evidence. Perhaps you came across Arrhenius' ionic theory in your science courses. You may have balanced some equations and made some calculations based on the theory. Could you develop a proof for the ionic theory that does not involve circumstantial evidence? Probably not. What about atoms? Largely circumstantial evidence again.

When was the rotation of the earth on its axis actually proven? It was as late as 1851,when Foucault's pendulum experiment provided a demonstration. This was well over a hundred years after it became almost universally accepted. It was a mass of circumstantial evidence that previously carried the day for the earth rotation model. It is worth repeating this cardinal point – prior to 1851 there was a universal consensus among scientists supporting the Copernican notion of a sun-centred solar system in spite of there being no real ‘smoking gun’ proof.

Your comments about evolution being unsound because the supporting evidence is circumstantial have no basis in scientific history and no substance. (As it happens there is also more than enough "smoking gun" evidence in favour of evolution.)

The theory of evolution is accepted universally among scientists working in the area today, not because it was proven by Darwin (or anyone else) but because it organises and explains an enormous amount of otherwise unrelated evidence. So powerful an organiser and predictor is evolution that scientists now regard evolution as, in the words of Ernst Mayr, "a simple fact".

Ernst Mayr has named Charles Darwin, the founder of the modern theory of evolution, as the most influential scientist of the last one hundred and fifty years (Scientific American, July 2000, vol 283, Number 1, pp 66-71). As a self-styled student of science, you would be well aware of the level of the competition. Yet the theory Darwin founded, which is one of the greatest intellectual achievements of the human mind, is apparently not for you.

It is your right and privilege to reject evolution. However, please do not set yourself up as any sort of an expert on the scientific issues involved. Your letter reveals that, on this issue at least, you are not well educated and are quite misguided. You have absorbed one (at least) of the numerous false creationist objections to evolution. Scientists have answered these objections on many occasions.

Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 04:40 pm
@edgarblythe,
To clarify, is this a refutation for my arguement?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 05:33 pm
@Anomie,
Take it any way you want. You seem too ignorant to argue with. I am just passing through the discussion and I noticed you thinking you were successfully arguing against evolution.
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 05:40 pm
@edgarblythe,
Very well:

Quote:
You mentioned the evidence for evolution that you encountered in college was circumstantial. Welcome to the real world. Much (but by no means all) theoretical scientific knowledge is based on circumstantial evidence. Perhaps you came across Arrhenius' ionic theory in your science courses. You may have balanced some equations and made some calculations based on the theory. Could you develop a proof for the ionic theory that does not involve circumstantial evidence? Probably not. What about atoms? Largely circumstantial evidence again.


Yes, I already stated that natural science is informal.
Quote:

When was the rotation of the earth on its axis actually proven? It was as late as 1851,when Foucault's pendulum experiment provided a demonstration. This was well over a hundred years after it became almost universally accepted. It was a mass of circumstantial evidence that previously carried the day for the earth rotation model. It is worth repeating this cardinal point – prior to 1851 there was a universal consensus among scientists supporting the Copernican notion of a sun-centred solar system in spite of there being no real ‘smoking gun’ proof.

You are appealing to consensus and authority, that is fallicious.

Can you define "universal consensus", are the conditions of this spectrum strictly human, have you observed external sentience, is there external sentience and can you prove empiricalism, consistently?

Can you define truth?
Quote:

Your comments about evolution being unsound because the supporting evidence is circumstantial have no basis in scientific history and no substance. (As it happens there is also more than enough "smoking gun" evidence in favour of evolution.)

Anomie said:
Quote:
The truth of an assertion is proven by 'sufficient' evidence in this case.

This is not logical, be it direct, or indirect.

Also, is evidence logical?
Quote:

Ernst Mayr has named Charles Darwin, the founder of the modern theory of evolution, as the most influential scientist of the last one hundred and fifty years (Scientific American, July 2000, vol 283, Number 1, pp 66-71). As a self-styled student of science, you would be well aware of the level of the competition. Yet the theory Darwin founded, which is one of the greatest intellectual achievements of the human mind, is apparently not for you.


Again, you you have been subjected to logical fallacies.

Furthermore, I do personally believe in evolution, which I already stated, however naturalism is not logical, it is 'rational'.

Quote:
It is your right and privilege to reject evolution. However, please do not set yourself up as any sort of an expert on the scientific issues involved. Your letter reveals that, on this issue at least, you are not well educated and are quite misguided. You have absorbed one (at least) of the numerous false creationist objections to evolution. Scientists have answered these objections on many occasions.


Define "set yourself up as any sort of expert"?

There are many assumptions in your arguement.
0 Replies
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 05:44 pm
@edgarblythe,
What is "thinking you were successfully arguing against evolution"?

You do not argue logically, nor scientifically, you are arguing normatives.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:03 pm
@Anomie,
Quote:
Cultural phenomena has been 'suggested' to be of 10,000-40,000 years ago,


Yes I know. I think the Willendorf Venus is in that range. So a guess at 6000 is not too bad really and might be seen as the writer of Genesis thinking his audience would hit the remote control if he carried on begatting for any longer than he judged trolerable. A list of begattings going back to just the fabled missing link would certainly test my patience.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:09 pm
@edgarblythe,
Have you changed your writing style ed?

What you don't understand is that the theory Darwin founded might not be for us. A "you" is of very little consequence.
0 Replies
 
 

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