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Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 11:03 pm
Wow, they really DO need to give engineers at least SOME biology classes. Laughing
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 12:14 am
Maybe they find that "shifting" to and from similiar species is enough. Maybe "upwards evolution" is unnecessary. Maybe they just go round in circles from species A to B to C then back to A again and so on.
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 12:14 am
Bacteria, I mean.
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 02:26 am
real life wrote:
Wow, they really DO need to give engineers at least SOME biology classes. Laughing


Still waiting.... proof?
Also still waiting to endulge in your credentials.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 06:38 am
Diest,

If a scientist had actually observed bacteria 'evolving' into a different organism, he would be world famous for uncovering what most would consider a 'smoking gun' in favor of evolution.

No such has occurred.

The burden of proof is upon one who would advance an extraordinary claim. It is not required of others that every extraordinary claim be taken seriously.

If you want to claim that bacteria actually have been proved to evolve into something other than bacteria, presumably some bio major at your school would be willing to help you document it, if such were true.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 01:06 pm
r l, that "argument" fails on at least a couple of levels. First, implied is that never has "bacterium A" been observed to become "bacterium B". The fact is, that isn't how evolution works. Our freinds "bacterium A" and "bacterium B" both are the end result of the evolutionary biomorphological processes which led to their development; each is what it is, the descendents of each will identifiably be of the species from which they've descended. That "they don't change into something else" is a red herring, it means nothing beyond they are what they are. Presenting an objection so based "proves" only the ignorance of the one posing that specious objection.

A critter which morphologically is half-way between single-cell organisms and plants is Euglena, "pond scum", a single-celled flagellate (they propel themselves about - are "motile" - with an appendage which is a whip-like "flagellum"), organisms which, while they do "eat" smaller critters, also contain chloroplasts, allowing them, in the manner of plants, to produce food for themselves through photosynthesis of less-complex chemical compounds into life-supporting nutrients.

Another set of critters which may, perhaps very likely does, represent a developmental stage intermediate between one type and another are gliding mammals, such as flying squirrels, a genus which appears to show signs of becoming more bat-like (not implying they are becoming bats, but rather that indications are they are evolving into another flying mammal) and another possible intermediate critter would be aquatic snakes, some of which present indications of incipient gill development. Then, of course, there are the amphibians, such as frogs, which as they mature from birth through juvenile stages into adulthood loose their gills, become airbreathers, and develop limbs.

A clear example of an intermediate step between single-cell organisms and multi-cell organisms is to be found in Myxococcus Xanthus. Bacteria are not spores, spores are not bacteria. M. xanthus is an otherwise typical thin-walled, motile bacterium normally given to reproduction through cellular division in the manner common to single cell organisms, but which in response to certain environmental stimulii - specifically "starvation", lack of nourishment - spontaneously aggregates into a complex multi-cellular "social organism", forming among other cooperative multi-cellular structures a "fruiting body" within the interior of which individual thin-walled, rod-shaped, motile bacterium differentiate into spherical, non-motile, thick-walled spores, which remain intact even as the "parent", the assembled "social organism", disrupts and disintegrates as its un-nourished component cells die. The spores, in the manner of spores, can and do remain dormant untill such time as nourishment again is available, whereupon the spores redifferentiate into thin-walled, rod-shaped motile bacterium.

Going a step beyond, by extension of the specious objection r l presented in this instance, there is the absurd claim that "no transitional fossils have been found". As demonstrated HERE, in layman-freindly fashion, that simply is not true. Anyone claiming there are no transitional fossils is either ignorant or lying, there are no other options.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 01:51 pm
RL - You must have been in a hurry, you forgot your credentials again.

The proof is all here for evolution. The creationist crowd is the only ones being selfish with there golden goose.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 02:38 pm
RL, ENGAGING HIS FAVORITE LINE OF "REASON"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Quote:




Indeed it is rl. I give you bats as the only species where we cannot trace an original "bud" that founded the chiroptera. The fossil record is quite complete to be able to tell a reasonable scientist a full story. And the Law of Superposition allows us to interpret appearances through time. We can establish ages of fossil bearing sediment by at least 10 different intersecting means excluding the fossils themselves.

Ill repeat my accusation regarding the "REAL" argument of silence, That is, The Penteteuch is lacking ANY scientific corroboration. Yet many "Biblical ARcheological SCholars" have set out looking for such evidence.
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 02:58 pm
real life,

What EXACTLY is your explanation for all the proof for evolution? It can't be the original Bible story; that one is easily ruled out, simply by the
discovery of dinosaur fossils
so what EXACTLY do you believe?

The only religion that does explain evolution is pastafarianism. Are you a worshipper of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 03:13 pm
Quote:

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution


Can't handle unpleasant news?
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 05:34 pm
That's not what I meant...

[Sigh] Damn you selective perception!
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 06:26 pm
aperson wrote:
real life,

What EXACTLY is your explanation for all the proof for evolution? It can't be the original Bible story; that one is easily ruled out, simply by the
discovery of dinosaur fossils
so what EXACTLY do you believe?

The only religion that does explain evolution is pastafarianism. Are you a worshipper of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?


Why do you think a dinosaur bone 'disproves' the Bible?

I don't know of any bone that has been dug up with the inscription 'the Bible is untrue', so obviously you must be reading something else into the discovery.

What are you inferring from dinosaur bones that makes you think the Bible cannot be true?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 06:40 pm
farmerman wrote:
RL, ENGAGING HIS FAVORITE LINE OF "REASON"
Quote:
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


Indeed it is rl. I give you bats as the only species where we cannot trace an original "bud" that founded the chiroptera. The fossil record is quite complete to be able to tell a reasonable scientist a full story. And the Law of Superposition allows us to interpret appearances through time. We can establish ages of fossil bearing sediment by at least 10 different intersecting means excluding the fossils themselves.

Ill repeat my accusation regarding the "REAL" argument of silence, That is, The Penteteuch is lacking ANY scientific corroboration. Yet many "Biblical ARcheological SCholars" have set out looking for such evidence.


I'd be very interested in hearing any alternate theories you have for the origin of the Torah.

Remember that the Torah is not just a collection of stories, it is the basis of religious law AND civil law for the Jewish people.

How do you propose someone imposed a whole set of religious laws AND an entire, exclusive system of civil law upon an entire society by convincing them that it was rooted in their history, a history they never heard of until these laws were fabricated?

Imagine living here in America which already has it's own customs, laws etc and someone trying to pass off as history, (not only stories but binding religious law and binding civil law), events that none of us had ever heard of.

Please.

So how did the Torah originate and become (religious AND civil) Law for the Jewish people if none of the events in the OT happened?

You're much better at science than history, farmerman.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 07:07 pm
RL - Life is a blur at the speed you're moving, I know, but you forgot your credentials again.
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 09:10 pm
unreal liff,
Stop avoiding my questions.

In response to your post:
I am asking you what exactly you believe in. I said that you can't believe the original Bible story literally (story is singular), referring to the first story in Genesis. In Genesis it says that all the animals that we know today were created by God in the beginnig of time. It does not mention our friend T-Rex. Therefore it cannot be right. Even if it does mention sea monsters which could be dinos, it is obvious by scientists estimations of the age of fossils that most modern creatures weren't created/evolved/whatever at the same time as dinosaurs.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 09:46 pm
aperson wrote:
unreal liff,
Stop avoiding my questions.

In response to your post:
I am asking you what exactly you believe in. I said that you can't believe the original Bible story literally (story is singular), referring to the first story in Genesis. In Genesis it says that all the animals that we know today were created by God in the beginnig of time. It does not mention our friend T-Rex. Therefore it cannot be right.


You cannot be serious.

It doesn't mention by name dogs, cats, bears, wolves, horses, monkeys, rats, raccoons and a whole host of animals.

*sigh*

Ok, let's look at the story.

Quote:
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


I looked up the Hebrew word that is translated 'every' in two separate instances in verse 21 and in one instance in verse 25.

It actually has a very technical meaning.

It means every.

aperson wrote:
Even if it does mention sea monsters which could be dinos, it is obvious by scientists estimations of the age of fossils that most modern creatures weren't created/evolved/whatever at the same time as dinosaurs.


Ok now we are getting somewhere.

You infer from dinosaur fossils that they MUST be millions of years old.

I disagree with the timeline.

Many of the dating methods used are highly assumptive IMHO. Also methods which might falsify the findings are ignored.

Also it might interest you to know that some very interesting work is being done on dinosaur bones.

A few years ago it was discovered that if you break open dinosaur bones, many of them are found to have soft tissue inside.

This should not be possible if the bones are aged in the 8-9 digit range, eh?

Also, many 'ancient' cultures such as the American Indian and the Chinese have passed down histories of their ancestors having encountered dinosaur-like creatures.

This would be impossible if the dinos have been gone for tens of millions of years and these cultures are only a few thousand years old.
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 10:15 pm
real life,
Okay. Listen. You are arguing for the literal Bible story. Correct me if necessary. Funny I don't know what exactly you are arguing for, even after asking you several times and getting no reply. I can see why Deist TKO gets pissed off at you. So, I plead to you: tell me.

Anyway it says that God created every living creature. I accept that. But, the problem is it says he did this at a single point in time (or in a very short period of time). You can't argue that the Bible says that God created every animal in the way that it says in the Bible, and then say that the problem I have just brought up can be dismissed because the story is metaphorical. You can't have it both ways.

Also, your suggestion that dinosaur like creatures were around in the time of humans is preposterous. Ever heard of the comodo dragon? Ever heard of myths? Ever heard of exaggeration and eventually total morphing of a story over time? Dragons and such are simply the product of the morphing of stories over time, as is most stories in the Bible.

But please, do not reply to that paragraph, because it is irrelevant. Even if the dinosaurs were not created/evolved/whatever as far back as scientist speculate, there is no way that you can say that dinos, AND all the primitive mammals and other species (which are examples of animals that are the ancestors of modern animals) were created at the same time as humans. If you do, I swear I will pack my bags and leave this thread.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 10:35 pm
The following little listing will provide at least starting points for anybody wishing to catch up with the latest details on the evolving demise of the theory of evolution:


Dim Views on Evolution:[/b]





Major Scientific Problems with Evolution









Time Frame Problems:









Talk.origins Realities









What Serious Scholars Have to Say about Evolution



http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/cequotes.html



The All-Time, Ultimate Evolution Quote



Quote:

If a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all came from slime. When we died, you know , that was it, there is nothing...

Jeffrey Dahmer, noted Evolutionist




Social Darwinism, Naziism, Communism, Darwinism Roots etc.








Creation and Intelligent Design Links







Evolutionist Censorship Etc.







Big Bang, Electric Sun, Plasma Physics and Cosmology Etc.









Intelligent Versions of Biogenesis etc.






Whole books online


Blind Atheist
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 07:43 am
aperson wrote:
real life,
Okay. Listen. You are arguing for the literal Bible story. Correct me if necessary. Funny I don't know what exactly you are arguing for, even after asking you several times and getting no reply. I can see why Deist TKO gets pissed off at you. So, I plead to you: tell me.

Anyway it says that God created every living creature. I accept that. But, the problem is it says he did this at a single point in time (or in a very short period of time). You can't argue that the Bible says that God created every animal in the way that it says in the Bible, and then say that the problem I have just brought up can be dismissed because the story is metaphorical. You can't have it both ways.

Also, your suggestion that dinosaur like creatures were around in the time of humans is preposterous. Ever heard of the comodo dragon? Ever heard of myths? Ever heard of exaggeration and eventually total morphing of a story over time? Dragons and such are simply the product of the morphing of stories over time, as is most stories in the Bible.

But please, do not reply to that paragraph, because it is irrelevant. Even if the dinosaurs were not created/evolved/whatever as far back as scientist speculate, there is no way that you can say that dinos, AND all the primitive mammals and other species (which are examples of animals that are the ancestors of modern animals) were created at the same time as humans. If you do, I swear I will pack my bags and leave this thread.


Where did I say the story is metaphorical? I'm not trying to have it both ways.

And if you are leaving, well, goodbye.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 07:51 am
Gungasnake,

That's quite a list.

It seems to me that the sticking point for most evolutionists is the age of the earth/universe.

Do you have a favorite book or resource on that subject? ( I saw a few on the list, but maybe your favorite is not online.)

Hope you have a Merry Christmas. I will probably be relatively scarce around here for the near future due to the holidays, and a few projects looming. But I will take a moment to check for your response. Take good care. Cool
0 Replies
 
 

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