65
   

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 11:17 am
RL,Thanks for the welcome home. It was very nice weather for December in ARgentina, it helped my SAD quite a bit.
NOW, for your question, what I believe and what I can prove or even understand are quite different things. I am fond of the Big Bang's simple elegance wherein the lightest of elements were first "transmuted" from energy and then a second event allowed for the ehavier elements to be produced.
My problem is that I cant follow the mathematical equations that support the "closed Universe or the open Universe" concepts.

Now, I do like the concept of ultimate collapse and transmutation back to energy wherein, perjhaps, another Big Bang will occur and start everything all over again.

Applied geophysics is light years away from theoretical physics, so I really defer to colleagues and then, usually, I fall asleep during their presentations.

I know you understand because I know that you "believe" a number of of things that are quite counter factual
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 01:58 pm
real life wrote:

I asked a question regarding matter -- was it eternally pre-existent?

You replied.

I answered your reply and continued the discussion.

I've yet to see a reply from you to what I posted.

So, who are you saying doesn't answer?



Unless I have a time machine, I believe I sked this the first time you asked it.

Diest TKO wrote:

real life wrote:

Do you think matter was eternally pre-existent?


The answer is not dependant on what we believe. Being that we have not ever been able to create matter nor witness it's natural creation or evidence there of, we are drawn to the conclusion that matter is pre-existant.

When we deal with the universe, we can say thin's like it expands indefinitely and in our universe, it seems to be accellerating. When looking at the the scale in which we are dealing with the semmingly intanglebe concepts of infinity become nothing more than the boudry parameters.

We must therefore draw a conclusion, knowing all the while that some degree of error exists.

The creationist will come define the answer to the challenge involved in the question. God (or some other being) intentionally created/designed the universe to be as it is. To the Creationist, ity closes off all unanswered questions. To them it holds water. Their evidence is that their contrived answer leaves nothing unaswered. The answer comes before the evidence.

The scientist will come to the conclusion that the rules of the universe that we experince now are not variant in time and that rules of the universe such as the conservation of mass and energy must have held true at it's beginning as it does now. The scientist understands that there are still unaswered questions but focuses more on the evidence leading to the answer as opposed to the alternative.

I'll admit that creationists have an answer for everything, but it's no more impressive than what I can generate in am tter of minutes. For all scientific purposes, I could even adapt every belief that the creationists have and edit only to the degree that says that instead of a being such as God creating everything, that a concept such as Love created everything. I'd certainly have an answer for everything, but NO evidence.

But my declaration of no evidence is better than any creationist will allow themselves to admit.


Owned.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Dec, 2006 06:20 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
real life wrote:

I asked a question regarding matter -- was it eternally pre-existent?

You replied.

I answered your reply and continued the discussion.

I've yet to see a reply from you to what I posted.

So, who are you saying doesn't answer?



Unless I have a time machine, I believe I sked this the first time you asked it.

Diest TKO wrote:

real life wrote:

Do you think matter was eternally pre-existent?


The answer is not dependant on what we believe. Being that we have not ever been able to create matter nor witness it's natural creation or evidence there of, we are drawn to the conclusion that matter is pre-existant.

When we deal with the universe, we can say thin's like it expands indefinitely and in our universe, it seems to be accellerating. When looking at the the scale in which we are dealing with the semmingly intanglebe concepts of infinity become nothing more than the boudry parameters.

We must therefore draw a conclusion, knowing all the while that some degree of error exists.

The creationist will come define the answer to the challenge involved in the question. God (or some other being) intentionally created/designed the universe to be as it is. To the Creationist, ity closes off all unanswered questions. To them it holds water. Their evidence is that their contrived answer leaves nothing unaswered. The answer comes before the evidence.

The scientist will come to the conclusion that the rules of the universe that we experince now are not variant in time and that rules of the universe such as the conservation of mass and energy must have held true at it's beginning as it does now. The scientist understands that there are still unaswered questions but focuses more on the evidence leading to the answer as opposed to the alternative.

I'll admit that creationists have an answer for everything, but it's no more impressive than what I can generate in am tter of minutes. For all scientific purposes, I could even adapt every belief that the creationists have and edit only to the degree that says that instead of a being such as God creating everything, that a concept such as Love created everything. I'd certainly have an answer for everything, but NO evidence.

But my declaration of no evidence is better than any creationist will allow themselves to admit.


Owned.


Yes, you answered my initial question regarding matter, and as I said, I replied ---- see http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2430381&highlight=guess#2430381

However, I have yet to see a reply to that.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 09:23 am
Quote:
Why don't you simply admit that this is not a 'scientific conclusion'.


This is a question? I object to it's crafting almost as much as its audacity.

Question: read above.
Answer: It most certainly a scientific conclusion.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 09:39 am
It's an argument from silence.

'We've never seen.........therefore it cannot be'
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 09:46 am
real life wrote:
It's an argument from silence.

'We've never seen.........therefore it cannot be'


Still a donkey with your carrot in the mud.

You're spoken like a true zealot. "Arguement from silence?" That's marketable.

There is still infinitely more validity in the arguement that "we can't witness the creation of matter naturally in our universe therefore we must assume that matter cannot be created," than you're arguement of "we can't witness the creation of matter naturally in our universe therefore we must assume that Ted the god of Biscuits created everything.

Do not lecture me about an arguement from silence.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 09:54 am
You finally used the correct word. It is an assumption, not a scientific conclusion.

In short, as I stated in my first reply to you on this subject:

It is nothing more than a guess.

Why don't you simply admit that you are guessing?
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 12:43 pm
ridiculous.

If that's the case RL, I elect to edit my choice of words. Replace any instance of assume, assumption, etc with conclude.

To guess is to have no foundation; to be absolutely arbitrary.

Your scientific approach is laughable.
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 01:33 pm
real life,
Your "argument from science" is completely bullshit. It's more like an "argument from religion" - "I haven't seen evolution happening so it can't exist".
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 05:38 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
ridiculous.

If that's the case RL, I elect to edit my choice of words. Replace any instance of assume, assumption, etc with conclude.

To guess is to have no foundation; to be absolutely arbitrary.

Your scientific approach is laughable.


Good job.

Change what you call it.

That makes a difference. Rolling Eyes

Many scientists would have simply answered the question 'I don't know', but I suppose you couldn't bring yourself to do that.
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 05:48 pm
Reply to my post, real liff
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Dec, 2006 08:42 pm
aperson wrote:
Reply to my post, real liff


Have you considered that the two statements in your sig:

aperson, in his sig wrote:
Humans simply execute programs. Free will is an illusion.

Open your eyes people! Cast aside your views, your opinions and beliefs. Look at everything from a point of total neutrality. Only then can you see the light.


are contradictory?

If humans have no free will, what difference will your encouragement to 'open your eyes' and 'cast aside your views' do?

Even if these were not contradictory, do you think that ANYONE really looks at things from a point of total neutrality? C'mon.

What does this have to do with your post? Everything.

Do you think those who work in science are working 'from a point of total neutrality'?

Do you think YOU are looking at things 'from a point of total neutrality'?

If you think you are, just look back and see how you've misquoted what I said.
0 Replies
 
Abid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:22 am
Does evolution believe that

Reptiles hatched an egg that a bird flew out of?
Aquatic animals jumped onto land because they thought they could?

Doesn't mutation cause degradation of DNA?

Haven't scientist tried to mutate house flies (which have remained unchanged for million of years) without on one occasion creating anything that is remotely similar, let alone better than the original?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 12:30 pm
Abid wrote:
Does evolution believe that...


None of what you wrote has anything to do with Evolution. Where did you get this stuff?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 09:29 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
Abid wrote:
Doesn't mutation cause degradation of DNA?


None of what you wrote has anything to do with Evolution. Where did you get this stuff?


Do you agree that the overwhelming majority of mutations are detrimental, not beneficial, to the organism?
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 09:54 pm
Abid wrote:
Does evolution believe that


Evolution is a word that describes an observed process - it doesn't Believe anything

Abid wrote:

Reptiles hatched an egg that a bird flew out of?
Aquatic animals jumped onto land because they thought they could?


I'm dumbfounded by you're ignorance of something you're arguing against. If you knew a bit more maybe you're arguments would be more cogent?

Abid wrote:

Doesn't mutation cause degradation of DNA?


Actually even replication causes degradation of DNA see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere

Abid wrote:

Haven't scientist tried to mutate house flies (which have remained unchanged for million of years) without on one occasion creating anything that is remotely similar, let alone better than the original?


No that's not correct. Read Wiener's Time, Love, Memory: A Great Biologist and His Quest for the Origins of Behavior and read about the work Seymour Benzer did with fruit flies - pretty amazing stuff and pretty easy to read. or just get a brief overview from Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Benzer
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:31 pm
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Abid wrote:
Doesn't mutation cause degradation of DNA?


None of what you wrote has anything to do with Evolution. Where did you get this stuff?


Do you agree that the overwhelming majority of mutations are detrimental, not beneficial, to the organism?


No. The overwhelming majority of mutations are neutral in a single instance. However, they do increase the potential for variety in the long term.
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:36 pm
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Abid wrote:
Doesn't mutation cause degradation of DNA?


None of what you wrote has anything to do with Evolution. Where did you get this stuff?


Do you agree that the overwhelming majority of mutations are detrimental, not beneficial, to the organism?

That's why evolution takes so long. The chances of a beneficial mutation are approximately 1 in 1000000. However, evolution also has to do with the hereditary genes.

Free will is a very complicated subject, let's stay out of it.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:50 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Abid wrote:
Doesn't mutation cause degradation of DNA?


None of what you wrote has anything to do with Evolution. Where did you get this stuff?


Do you agree that the overwhelming majority of mutations are detrimental, not beneficial, to the organism?


No. The overwhelming majority of mutations are neutral in a single instance. However, they do increase the potential for variety in the long term.


Also, as we have been discussing in several threads now, and as Farmerman has referenced from the works of Ernst Mahr, a large portion of evolutionary change doesn't derive from successive mutation, but from reorganization of existing genes which are available in the gene pool. It's the mixing of existing genes which leads to most of the phenotypical variation, it's not repeated random mutations.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Dec, 2006 11:07 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Abid wrote:
Doesn't mutation cause degradation of DNA?


None of what you wrote has anything to do with Evolution. Where did you get this stuff?


Do you agree that the overwhelming majority of mutations are detrimental, not beneficial, to the organism?


No. The overwhelming majority of mutations are neutral in a single instance. However, they do increase the potential for variety in the long term.


OK, let's look at this step by step.

The function of the vast majority of the genome is unknown to us.

But the assumption seems to be that each portion DOES have a function. (If each portion doesn't confer a 'survival benefit' i.e. have a positive function, then evolutionists will have to explain why these portions are consistently 'selected for'.)

If the genome does have a function, then the interruption of that function by a change would HAVE TO be negative , UNLESS it was a positive change.

The removal of usefulness without replacement by some other benefit would have to be a net loss, yes?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.14 seconds on 11/23/2024 at 06:03:46