I Was a Big "Kramer" Fan...

If one is a racist in private, what's that to me? Being racist before others, whether it's one or a crowd, is a different matter. Particularly if that racist has a pulpit from which to spill his bile. Richards is undoubtedly sorry. No matter; he has killed the joy I felt watching him act as Kramer, or anything else. It's a visceral reaction no amount of rationalizing can assuage. His career died for me yesterday.

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If I gave the impression I was waiting for him to "do" anything, let me say that I am not.

When someone f*cks up, all they can do is say they f*cked up, and will try not to do it again, and that they are sorry.

I f*ck up a lot myself.

When there are a whole lot of words before, after, and in between "I'm sorry - I f*cked up", it does make me a little wary. He was saying a lot of things about his "inner rage" that "just exploded on those people", and a lot of psychobabble about his anger that just made me think he has a little mental insulation between himself and his f*ckup, that's all.
And there are a couple of people here that seem to have a little disconnect from the reality that he simply f*cked up, evidenced by talk about harm to the comedic art, and how everyone is capable of what he did, and such.

I think he probably did the best he could, and I'm not waiting for anything else.

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I don't know why one would assume that Richards is expected to "do" anything. And his apologies are bootless. As has already been pointed out, he would not have reacted by shouting "n*gger" if he had not already had the racist attitudes within him.

When i was a small boy, i said the word "n*gger" in my grandparents home. I had my mouth washed out with soap--literally, i was dragged to the bathroom and had a bar of soap shoved into my mouth. This was in an all-white small town which still had an ordinance on the books which prohibited black people from being within the town limits after sundown. Whether or not someone has racist attitudes is a product of the environment in which one is raised. I lived with my maternal grandparents, and expressed racism, racist comments, were simply not tolerated. My father's family were racist to the core, the made remarks constantly about "n*ggers, kykes, greasers," etc. My father's sister made me very aware of just how deeply racism ran in her family--she married a Jewish man after she left college, and she was so constantly harrassed by her family that her marriage eventually broke up, although she and her former husband remained cordial, and managed to raise their daughter without rancor--and that woman is a wonderful woman.

Richards would not have behaved as he did if he were not a racist at heart. There is nothing he can do--he's already done it.

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snood - You're very right; he did f*** up. Bigtime. I think the psychobabble is just an attempt to explain it. People want to hear more than the two simple words of "I'm sorry." They want to know "why," but sometimes there is just no why.

Everyone loses it at times, whether it's some deeply buried thoughts that comes boiling up at times of stress, or some physical act of violence like throwing something at a wall.
Humans are far from perfect.
It's just a shame that this happened in such a public forum.....which it didn't really except for the miracle of videotape and the internet.

On the Today Show this morning, I saw a clip of a black woman speaking (yelling actually) to someone who, I think, was associated with The Laugh Factory. She was saying that she wanted to know what was going to be done about this. I don't know what she wants done - he's already been banned from performing at that club again, he's made a public apology - what else is there? Public flogging?

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Setanta said: Whether or not someone has racist attitudes is a product of the environment in which one is raised.

I disagree. I grew up in a household where my father was a cop who had to patrol the streets of Baltimore during the riots after MLK,Jr. was killed.
I heard the things that were said behind closed doors, between my parents. Things that would never had been said outside, among others, but were fears and prejudices that were inside my parents because they saw what was happening first hand and were trying to protect their home and children.
I, however do not consider myself a racist and do not care what color a person's skin is. What matters to me is how I am treated by that person.
If something happens at one of my kid's schools, I don't ask what color the kid's skin is, I ask "who" the student is. Many times during the years, my kids have talked about a classmate/friend for a long time before I have actually met the kid in person, and then when I do meet them I see that they are black.....something that was never mentioned because my kids literally have never heard anything around my home to differentiate color.

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You note yourself that your parents only spoke of these things in private--behind closed doors one might say. Children aren't stupid, you knew that the remarks were only made in private, and that your parents didn't speak in such a manner publicly. You learned that lesson, even if you don't recognize that now.

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happycat wrote:

On the Today Show this morning, I saw a clip of a black woman speaking (yelling actually) to someone who, I think, was associated with The Laugh Factory. She was saying that she wanted to know what was going to be done about this.

They should have referred her to Chris Rock.

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Happycat:

He apologized, but to many of us it is a meaningless apology. His anger controlled him, which is a dangerous thing in itself, and out spewed this nasty stuff. Who could ever look at him the way we did before this event?

It's not silly for us to no longer be able to view Seinfeld (episodes with Kramer) as before - we have a tarnished image of him now which he tarnished himself.

If you don't get that, there's nothing more I can say.

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Setanta wrote:

You note yourself that your parents only spoke of these things in private--behind closed doors one might say. Children aren't stupid, you knew that the remarks were only made in private, and that your parents didn't speak in such a manner publicly. You learned that lesson, even if you don't recognize that now.

Yep. Just like my kids have learned that what I say about the weird lady down the street doesn't go beyond our front door.....or that my son doesn't tell his gym teacher that I think he's a jackass (btw, all these people are white.)

I took it all to mean that my parents had their views about the races from the way they saw the world because they were out in it.
The 60's was not an easy time to be any color.
However, I grew up, matured and formed my own opinions.

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Mame wrote:

Happycat:

He apologized, but to many of us it is a meaningless apology. His anger controlled him, which is a dangerous thing in itself, and out spewed this nasty stuff. Who could ever look at him the way we did before this event?

It's not silly for us to no longer be able to view Seinfeld (episodes with Kramer) as before - we have a tarnished image of him now which he tarnished himself.

If you don't get that, there's nothing more I can say.

Well, you're right; I don't get it.

How can an apology be meaningless? How can someone put more meaning into an apology?

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An apology can be meaningless if someone doesn't mean it! Simple. If he just apologized for expediency; for political or career reasons...

if he weren't a racist, where did all those comments spring from?

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Is there an acceptable amount of time that must pass in order to make an apology meaningful? Have you never said something to someone and knew as soon as the words left your lips that you shouldn't have said that?
I have; in the heat of an argument, I've said something and immediately said "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have gone there" or some such.

Maybe the hecklers were saying inciteful things to him personally....who knows. Maybe it was the sense of hostility he was getting from the crowd. We don't know, we weren't there. We're just Monday-morning quarterbacking here.

I'd be interested in hearing from people that he's worked with during his many years in the theatre. He is 59 years old, after all.....I would think if he was a true racist that someone, somewhere along the line would have a story to tell. We'll see if someone from his past comes along and says
"oh yeah, I remember the time Michael Richards said this....."

Or maybe not.

One instance does not make a person a racist. It just means the person had a lapse of judgement and made a major mistake. Or as snood said, he f***ed up.

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happycat wrote:

Is there an acceptable amount of time that must pass in order to make an apology meaningful? Have you never said something to someone and knew as soon as the words left your lips that you shouldn't have said that?

I have; in the heat of an argument, I've said something and immediately said "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have gone there" or some such.

Maybe the hecklers were saying inciteful things to him personally....who knows. Maybe it was the sense of hostility he was getting from the crowd. We don't know, we weren't there. We're just Monday-morning quarterbacking here.

I'd be interested in hearing from people that he's worked with during his many years in the theatre. He is 59 years old, after all.....I would think if he was a true racist that someone, somewhere along the line would have a story to tell. We'll see if someone from his past comes along and says
"oh yeah, I remember the time Michael Richards said this....."

Or maybe not.

1. I don't think time is an issue here - for me, it doesn't matter how much time elapses.

2. By the way, I don't hate the guy. I just don't respect him or like him the way I used to.

3. These words didn't just pass his lips - they were spewed out. And he went on long enough for many people to leave. This is not the same as blurting something out and then regretting it. Can you not see the difference?

4. His anger is another issue here (not entirely unrelated, probably) - as someone else pointed out, as a professional comedian, he should have been able to handle hecklers with a bit more finesse.

5. Yes, maybe we're over-reacting, maybe he's not a racist, and maybe he really is sorry. This is just some of our take on it.

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snood wrote:

And there are a couple of people here that seem to have a little disconnect from the reality that he simply f*cked up, evidenced by talk about harm to the comedic art, and how everyone is capable of what he did, and such.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. What disconnect is there? I said that he f*cked up. I also see how it could have happened, given what he was doing when it happened. I don't see that as a disconnect. Can you please explain why you think it is?

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Mame - BINGO on your #5.
As usual, the public is over-reacting and we're being fueled by the media attention.

Look at the Tom Cruise incident(s) - he made his apology to Brooke Shields and now he's the golden boy all over again. He was just as rude (moreso) to the millions of people on anti-depressants and mothers suffering from postpartum depression, as Richards was to the small audience at the Laugh Factory.

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How do you figure he's the golden boy again? I think most everyone thinks he's a flake - first for jumping all over Oprah's couch like that - for the way he 'fell in love' with Katie Holmes (lol), and for his opinions on ppd.

Just because Brooke Shields forgave him doesn't mean the rest of the world did. He's a goof.

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Mame wrote:

How do you figure he's the golden boy again? I think most everyone thinks he's a flake - first for jumping all over Oprah's couch like that - for the way he 'fell in love' with Katie Holmes (lol), and for his opinions on ppd.

Just because Brooke Shields forgave him doesn't mean the rest of the world did. He's a goof.

LOL! have you not read the papers or watched tv this week???? Tom-Kat were married at a huge castle with all the fanfare of a royal wedding!
The TV Guide Channel has been talking about it no end.

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Cruise does not make much of a difference in my life. If I were asked an opinion, I would say that he is a schmuck, and what he said to Brooke Shileds was unconscionable. I believe that he meant what he said. His apology, IMO, was merely some damage control.

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Just because he's in the news doesn't mean he's a golden boy - he's just news because he's famous. Look at OJ - the whole furor over the book If I Did It - no one believes he's innocent... no one trusts or respects this guy, but he seems to get coverage all the time.

Another example is Monica Lewinsky. Or Paris Hilton.

.....it's all just fodder.

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Mame wrote:

Just because he's in the news doesn't mean he's a golden boy - he's just news because he's famous. Look at OJ - the whole furor over the book If I Did It - no one believes he's innocent... no one trusts or respects this guy, but he seems to get coverage all the time.

Another example is Monica Lewinsky. Or Paris Hilton.

.....it's all just fodder.

You're right it is just fodder. Smile

But if Cruise wasn't the golden boy, would girls and women line up along the route to the castle just to catch a glimpe of him?
I don't think anyone would go out of their way to see OJ - in fact, they'd probably cross to the other side of the street to avoid him!

In time, people forgive almost anything.....except murder.

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I Was a Big "Kramer" Fan...

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