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Who Lost Iraq?

 
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 03:44 pm
Zippo wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
McTag wrote:
Zippo is correct of course.


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


Actually, you have made a good point here. What you've suggested may be Bush's only last hope. He can avoid execution after his trail at the Hague by simply laughing out loud 24/7 at anything and everything. He may be excused because of his mental illness...its a way out.

Why didn't you answer the question then abiout the Pelosi Conyers dereliction of duty, if it was a good point?
You honestly believe that Bush will stand trial in the Hague?
Do you often poke fun at or wish death on people that you percieve as suffering mental illness?
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 03:47 pm
Zippo wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
McTag wrote:
Zippo is correct of course.


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


Actually, you have made a good point here. What you've suggested may be Bush's only last hope. He can avoid execution after his trail at the Hague by simply laughing out loud 24/7 at anything and everything. He may be excused because of his mental illness...its a way out.

Oh my, do you often poke fun at or wish death on the mentally ill? Shocked
Is that some of the compassion that Dems like to speak of?
Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 03:52 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Do you really think Israel used even half there military force against Lebanon? DO you honestly think that the war in Lebanon is a true testament to the military power Israel has at it's disposal?

I don't. I think you use it as an example to flaunt your opinion and nothing more.


According to Israeli sources, McG, more than 40,000 troops were committed to a small region of southern Lebanon--and, once again according to Israeli sources, they failed to acheive their military objectives. Members of the IDF complained that they often weren't fed, didn't reliably have drinking water, and were often sitting ducks on the road waiting for someone to decide what they should do and give them orders.

None of that is to the point though--the point is about Iraq. I wrote one paragraph about Israel and their stupidity in the Lebanon. I wrote quite a long post about Iraq. Do you have something to say to the subject, or did you just hope to dodge the implications of what i wrote. I clearly remarked, by the way that i was expressing my opinion in the final paragraph. When you use "flaunt," you're just attempting to color the remarks unfavorably. How about addressing point by point what i said about the middle east, McG? Are you willing and able to do so?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 04:02 pm
Lone Star Madam should stick to running the Lone Star Whorehouse (another Bushco enterprise, i would assume), and lay off the Constitution.

Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution delineates the powers of Congress, and reads, in part:

[Congress shall have the power:]

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;


Lone Star Madam claims that Congress ceded its war making power. If Lone Star Madam is so goddamned well-informed, it should be a simple matter for her to provide the evidence and a source to back it.

My source for that quote of Article I, Section 8, is The United States Constituion Online, and specifically, the page for Article I, Section 8. As incredible as it may seem to Lone Star Madam, many of us have read the Constitution, and more than once. That's how i knew where to look for the relevant passage.

Put up or shut up, LSM, where's your evidence that Congress "ceded" its war-making powers?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 04:28 pm
On the assumption that brandon is going to stay tucked under his covers on this bright new morning...

I'm going to plunk a substantial piece in here. It's subject is greater than gus's original question, but it relates absolutely to the arrogance and incompetence that has led to Rumsfeld's and the administration's well deserved fall and to the tragic mess in the middle east.

I'm specifically including portions on "terrorism". For those who can read and learn. Link is here.

Quote:
Five years after George Bush launched America on a global crusade to "rid the world of evil," it is safe to say that the tide has turned. No, America is not winning, although some argue that it might be politic, at this juncture, to declare victory.[1] Nor is America necessarily losing, as others have asserted. What has happened instead is that the mental construct that framed the Bush administration's reaction to September 11 as a "war" is beginning to fall apart.

This is not surprising. What is surprising is that it has taken so long for Americans to notice. Much of the rest of the world at a fairly early stage lost faith, if they ever had any, in the narrative promoted by President Bush, in which America was cast as the leader of freedom, battling a foe variously described as terror or terrorism, and sometimes as evil or evildoers. To doubters it seemed obvious from the beginning that one does not wage "war" against terrorism, a word that, despite those last three letters, does not describe an ideology or a targetable enemy, but rather an ugly technique of attack that has long been used by the weak against the strong.

snip


Even disregarding the President's hyperbole, such ostensibly sober statements of purpose as the administration's 2002 and 2006 National Security Strategy papers, which were intended to lay out a comprehensive program, reveal, on careful reading, a disturbing lack of focus. One proclaimed goal in the 2006 report, for instance, is "Ending Tyranny," an objective that may be commendable, but which has not proved attainable, on anything like a global scale, at any point in recorded history. One declared method for achieving American war aims is the launching of preemptive strikes, on the grounds, as the 2002 National Security Strategy put it, that "we cannot afford to stand idly by as grave dangers materialize." This was understandable, certainly, in the light of the horrors of the September 11 attacks and the fear raised by them, yet it seemed rash to sanction aggression based on the presumption of others' intent, particularly since the same documents outlined a rather bewildering array of perceived threats and dangers facing America.

These strategy papers correctly identify al-Qaeda as the principal enemy of the United States. But they also point to "a host of other groups and individuals" charged with using terrorism to achieve political ends. It turns out, however, that of the forty-two entries on the State Department's list of "Foreign Terrorist Organizations," only a half-dozen?-all of them branches, offshoots, or ideological allies of al-Qaeda?-have ever attacked the United States, or even indicated a readiness to do so. Most of the others, such as the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia (FARC) and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) in Sri Lanka, are engaged in nasty localized insurgencies that have little to do with the US. Some, such as Hamas and Hezbollah, have targeted Israel, an American ally. But their occasional expressions of hostility to America have only been exacerbated, and granted greater urgency and resonance, by America's apparent declaration of war on them.

The 2006 National Security Strategy states that America "may face no greater challenge from a single country than from Iran." Again, the dislike of a noisily belligerent and obscurantist regime that may be seeking nuclear arms is understandable. Yet to an objective observer America seems wonderfully blessed, if indeed it is true that Iran represents its greatest challenge. No doubt, one result of the American invasion of Iraq has been to greatly expand Iran's influence there, a "challenge" made possible by America's own policy.[2] But the Islamic Republic is, after all, halfway around the globe from America's shores. Its population is a quarter of America's, its GNP one hundredth the size, and it is, at present, surrounded by better-equipped American and allied armed forces.

Compared, say, to the threat of atomic obliteration posed by the Soviet Union between 1949 and 1989, the possibility of an Iranian attack on the United States does not seem very large. Even a nuclear-armed Iran would never dare strike the superpower because it would risk annihilation in response. Obviously America poses a far greater threat to Iran than Iran does to the United States. And perversely, it is this threat, more than anything else right now, that bolsters Iran's oppressive and unpopular government.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is also true, of course, that the Bush administration successfully marketed the invasion of Iraq to the American public as a front in the Global War on Terror. A poll taken in August 2003, for instance, found that 69 percent of Americans were convinced that Saddam Hussein had a "personal role" in the September 11 attacks. Foreign reporters who interviewed US troops in Kuwait on the eve of fighting were appalled to find them sincerely convinced that they were about to fight "terrorists." This misapprehension, fanned by administration officials, was surely one of the reasons for the overly aggressive behavior?-as in Falluja, Abu Ghraib, and Haditha, among others?-that sparked and continues to stoke such fierce popular resistance to American forces in Iraq. Long after the invasion, and long after search teams failed to find either weapons of mass destruction or any intelligence linking Saddam Hussein to al-Qaeda, polls showed that most Americans still believed that Saddam Hussein bore some responsibility for September 11.[3]

snip

Increasingly, however, the narrative of a great crusade to rid the world of terrorism (the current label used by the White House is "The Long War"), with Iraq an exemplary episode, is no longer convincing to Americans, as the opinion polls suggest. In August, CBS polls found that 81 percent of Americans accept the threat of terrorism as something "they will always have to live with." More than half, according to a Harris poll in July, do not believe that the fighting in Iraq is part of Bush's campaign against terrorism, and 57 percent do not believe that America's safety from terrorism depends on its outcome. In fact, some 63 percent now say the Iraq war was "not worth it," compared to 48 percent last year. A majority also think the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan are creating more terrorists than they are eliminating. And this year, for the first time since September 11, a solid majority reckoned a terrorist attack in the United States within coming weeks was "unlikely."

In other words, while most Americans feel that the threat of terrorism is receding, they have also come to regard terrorism as an ineradicable fact of life. The treatment of terrorism by means of a global military offensive, they recognize, has been both inappropriate and counterproductive.

snip

It is only recently that the broader public has begun to absorb the facts of American failure abroad. To whoever wants to listen, several new books offer detailed and persuasive explanations of what has gone wrong in America's counterterror policy, why it went wrong, and how it may be put right.

One of the best is by Louise Richardson, a Harvard professor who not only has been teaching about terrorism for a decade, but brings the experience of an Irish childhood, including youthful enthusiasm for the IRA, to understanding the phenomenon. As she explains, she had always thought it wise for academics to stay out of politics. The sheer boneheadedness of Washington's incumbents, who have ignored decades of accumulated wisdom on her subject, prompted her to write a belated primer.

The result is a book that reads like an all-encompassing crash course in terrorism: its history, what motivates it, and the most effective ways of treating it. Her analysis is clear, thorough, illuminating, and provocative. The lesson, as it unfolds, is quietly, authoritatively excoriating about the policies this administration has pursued. Indeed, one would like to see the entire US national security establishment frog-marched into Richardson's Terrorism 101.

Here are a dozen of her basic points:

1. Terrorism is anything but new. Violence by nonstate actors against civilians to achieve political aims has been going on for a long, long time. The biblical Zealots known as the Sicarii used it against the Romans, as well as against fellow Jews, in the vain hope of provoking the Imperium to so extreme a response that they would foment a mass uprising. Following the failed 1848 revolutions in Europe, the German radical Karl Heinzen published a tract, simply titled Murder, which advocated selective homicide as a spark to general revolt. Various groups soon put such ideas into practice. The Clerkenwell bombing of 1867, carried out by the Fenians, an Irish nationalist group, prompted a surge of hysteria in London reminiscent of the response provoked by September 11.

So, in later decades, did the wave of anarchist terrorism that swept Europe and the United States. Revolutionaries assassinated seven heads of state between 1881 and 1914. Paris suffered bomb attacks no fewer than eleven times between 1892 and 1894. In the 1930s and 1940s of the last century, Menachem Begin's Irgun organization slaughtered scores of Palestinian civilians and British soldiers. The Israeli leader went on to share a Nobel Peace Prize.

2. Terrorism is obviously a threat, and the deliberate killing of innocent civilians an outrage, but it is not a very big threat. As John Mueller points out in Overblown, his sadly funny, far less patient account of America's response to September 11, the probability of an American being killed by terrorists is about the same as of being felled by an allergic reaction to peanuts. Six times more Americans are killed every year by drunk drivers than died in the World Trade Center. (And more Americans have now died in Iraq and Afghan-istan.) Excepting a few particularly bad years, the annual number of deaths from terrorism worldwide since the late 1960s, when the State Department started record-keeping, is only about the same as the number of Americans who drown every year in bathtubs.

3. The danger from terrorist use of so-called weapons of mass destruction is not as large as scaremongers profess. Known chemical weapons do not, in fact, cause much wider damage than conventional weapons, and in addition they are difficult to use. The Japanese religious cult Aum Shinrikyo (Aum is Japanese for Supreme Truth), which had excellent technicians and facilities and plenty of money to brew lethal potions, discovered this when it tried to poison the Tokyo subway with sarin gas in 1995. Biological weapons are potentially more deadly, but also hard to make and to diffuse. As for nuclear weapons, there is no evidence that any terrorist group has ever come close to acquiring them. Placing all these dangers in a single category of threat is misleading, and greatly exaggerates the overall threat posed by terrorist groups around the world.

4. Many terrorists are not madmen. The choice to use terror can be quite rational and calculated. In his memoirs, Nelson Mandela recalls that the African National Congress debated what method to use to confront apartheid. Terrorism was considered, but scrapped, mercifully, in favor of sabotage attacks, for fear of alienating potential supporters. The IRA was murderous, but found that planting bombs and then warning of their presence was just as effective as setting them off in crowds. This tactic had the advantage of avoiding some of the "collateral damage" of bad publicity. Other terrorists, such as those linked with al-Qaeda, unfortunately, like bad publicity as much as good.

5. Groups that commit terrorism, in many cases, believe they are acting defensively, using the most effective means at their disposal. Their justifications can be self-serving and morally repugnant, but are often carefully elaborated. Some terrorists rely on the complicity of the people around them, and so must work to persuade them of their rectitude. Others operate in inhospitable environments, and aim more to shock and provoke. It is, Richardson emphasizes, important to distinguish these differing approaches, since they suggest different remedies.

6. Suicide attacks can also represent a rational policy choice. They are cheap. They can be a means of access to difficult targets. They are effective in frightening people, and in advertising the seriousness and devotion of those who undertake them. Typical suicide "martyrs" are not loners or misfits; in their will to die for a cause, they tend to be sustained by the strong solidarity of a close group of collaborators. They are often motivated by personal humiliation at the hands of those they wish to hurt, or they wish to take revenge for the killings of family members or comrades. Suicide attacks are not new, either. They were used, for example, since the nineteenth century by the Muslim Moros guerrillas against both Spanish and US invaders of the Philippines. Before Iraq, their most intensive use in modern times was not in the Middle East but in Sri Lanka, where, since 1987, Tamil rebels have killed hundreds of government soldiers in scores of suicide operations, often carried out by women.

7. There is no special link between Islam and terrorism. Most major religions have produced some form of terrorism, and many terrorist groups have professed atheism. If there is a particular tenacity in Islamist forms of terrorism today, this is a product not of Islamic scripture but of the current historical circumstance that many Muslims live in places of intense political conflict. Contemporary Islamist movements that resort to terrorism are, however, often strengthened in their appeal by the fact that they want to link a faith-based activism, intended to "transform" society, with ethnic and nationalist causes. Most other terrorist groups have not combined their intentions in this way. For instance, the IRA does not have "transformational" aims, as Richardson puts it, but rather territorial ones.

8. Electoral democracy does not prevent terrorism, which has flourished in many democracies, typically being used by groups representing minorities who believe the logic of majority rule excludes them. The Basque separatist group ETA and Greece's November 17th urban guerrillas started under dictatorships, but continued their attacks following transitions to democracy in both countries.

9. Democratic principles are no impediment to prosecuting terrorists. On the contrary they are, Richardson asserts, "among the strongest weapons in our arsenal." Pointedly, she recalls that during the Revolutionary War, George Washington, although incensed by Britain's policy of incarcerating American revolutionaries on grisly prison ships, where twice as many perished as on the battlefield, gave strict orders for the humane treatment of British captives.

10. Military action is sometimes necessary to combat terrorism, but it is often not the best way to do so. When Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon in 2000, after a twenty-two-year occupation, it left behind a far stronger and more determined adversary in Hezbollah than it had started with. The Peruvian army spent twenty years in an ugly, scorched-earth campaign against Sendero Luminoso guerrillas, during which nearly 70,000 people were killed. The group was defeated and disbanded after a change in tactics when a seventy-man police team took just six months, using incisive analysis and good intelligence, to capture its leader. In the cases where brute military action has succeeded, as in Uruguay and Argentina in the 1970s and 1980s, it was at the cost of democracy and human rights.

11. Armies, in fact, often create more problems than they solve. When Britain sent its army into Northern Ireland in 1969 in response to the Troubles, it took just two years for the majority of Catholics, who were at first relieved by their presence, to turn against them. The turnaround for the US in Iraq was far shorter. During the seven months between September 2003 and April 2004, as Charles Peña reminds us in Winning the Un-War, the proportion of Iraqis saying that attacks on foreign troops were somewhat or fully justified leapt from 8 percent to 61 percent. This was exactly the period when a sudden surge in attacks on US forces, following the initial post-invasion calm, prompted vigorous counterinsurgency measures. That is all the time it took, it seems, for Iraqis to decide they did not like being searched, beaten up, shot at, jailed, and humiliated by American troops, whatever the reasons given. Recent polls show some 61 percent of Iraqis still approve of attacking the Americans, and 78 percent believe the US presence is "provoking more conflict than it is preventing."

12. To address the issues terrorists say they are fighting for cannot automatically be dismissed as appeasement. Britain did not succeed in disarming the IRA by ignoring its de-mands but by engaging them, and by altering the situation in Northern Ireland that had created the IRA's perception of a threat to its goals. In fact, the conversion of terrorist groups in-to peaceful political movements has often occurred because their rationale for violence has ceased to exist, or because they came to feel that resort to terrorist tactics would limit their room for political maneuver.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 04:34 pm
I found Iraq.. it was under the passenger seat of my Explorer....
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 04:37 pm
"Lone Star Madam should stick to running the Lone Star WHorehouse (another Bush enterprise, I presume? & lay off the Constitution"
ROTFLMAO That takes some grit, telling me to lay off the Constitution, in other words shut up, you don't like the first amendment to the Constitution, I take it. lol
BTW-"Madam" isn't always a whorehouse keeper....maybe you could brush up on history....
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 04:40 pm
I didn't tell you to shut up . . . i just pointed out that you are making **** up, and don't know what the hell you're talking about.

As for assuming that you run a whorehouse, the Lone Star Madam part combined with a defense of that dipshit from Texas naturally lead to thoughts of prostitution.

Where's that evidence that Congress ceded its war-making powers to the President, hmm? Having a little trouble finding that? If the Shrub didn't need Congress to authorize his dirty little war, why did he get a Congressional resolution in advance? Complete with lies and faked evidence . . . my, my, my.
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 04:54 pm
Setanta wrote:
I didn't tell you to shut up . . . i just pointed out that you are making **** up, and don't know what the hell you're talking about.

As for assuming that you run a whorehouse, the Lone Star Madam part combined with a defense of that dipshit from Texas naturally lead to thoughts of prostitution.

Where's that evidence that Congress ceded its war-making powers to the President, hmm? Having a little trouble finding that? If the Shrub didn't need Congress to authorize his dirty little war, why did he get a Congressional resolution in advance? Complete with lies and faked evidence . . . my, my, my.


You do know what it means to assume, right? However, it isn't I that is the ass. You apparently don't read a lot either. lol Lone Star & The Denver Madam, is what I took my name from.
You can not point to one post where i have defended George bush, not one. So get along now, pick on somebody that your oh so powerful intellect impresses.
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 04:55 pm
Oh, & "leave the Constitution alone" If you're not telling me to not speak to it, what are you saying? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 05:06 pm
That's a good piece from NYRB, Blatham.

I yearn for the time when the weight of such evidence and opinion is at last seen to have reached critical mass, Bush figures drop below 2% and the remaining backwoodsmen go back to their swamps.

Then, we could have an enquiry about how the US Administration was able to mislead the country and misuse the civilised world.
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 05:12 pm
Remaining backswoodsman? What makes you think they'll go back? The trailer trash from Arkansas didn't go back, they swindeled the US taxpayer out of funds to make their house payment in NY, now one of them is the senator from NY. lol
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 06:12 pm
You're giving yourself away again, dearie.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 06:29 pm
McTag wrote:
That's a good piece from NYRB, Blatham.

I yearn for the time when the weight of such evidence and opinion is at last seen to have reached critical mass, Bush figures drop below 2% and the remaining backwoodsmen go back to their swamps.

Then, we could have an enquiry about how the US Administration was able to mislead the country and misuse the civilised world.


hi big fella

It is an extraordinary publication, and each issue is a treasure. If you take a look back at the link and go over the contents, including previous issues, you'll get a good idea of the range of content and the quality of the analyses/writing.

There seems to be something like 20-30 % of any population which will fall with frightening ease to totalitarian seduction. I expect that some such percentage in the old Soviet Union countries still wish the old regime back. Or Israel. Or Iran. Or Canada.

I used to bemoan what I saw as a general apathy as regards political activism. I now consider it a saving grace. When circumstances push towards an increase of that base percentage (promoting fear is one means, promoting hatred another side of the same coin) then we get the French Revolution or the Red Guards or Leninist hordes or the modern US conservative movement.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 06:41 pm
The billposter's bucket approach.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 06:44 pm
LoneStarMadam wrote:
Oh, & "leave the Constitution alone" If you're not telling me to not speak to it, what are you saying?


I'm telling you that you demonstrate all too obviously that you don't know **** about the Constitution, in the first place, and that you're making **** up when you say that Congress ceded its war-making power, in the second place. You can run your mouth and prove you're a fool to your heart's content, and you can expect to have it pointed out.

I note that you have not provided a shred of evidence to support that horseshit statement. I'll bet you're a Freeper. But here, unlike FreeRepublic, you'll get called on to provide evidence for your statements, and if you can't provide it, you'll be taken for a loud-mouth bullshit artist.

As for Wesley Ellis . . . no, i don't read cowboy fiction, i've got better ways to spend my time.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 07:21 pm
George Bush.

When you kick over an ant hill you don't blame the ants for biting your leg.
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 09:25 pm
Setanta wrote:
LoneStarMadam wrote:
Oh, & "leave the Constitution alone" If you're not telling me to not speak to it, what are you saying?


I'm telling you that you demonstrate all too obviously that you don't know **** about the Constitution, in the first place, and that you're making **** up when you say that Congress ceded its war-making power, in the second place. You can run your mouth and prove you're a fool to your heart's content, and you can expect to have it pointed out.

I note that you have not provided a shred of evidence to support that horseshit statement. I'll bet you're a Freeper. But here, unlike FreeRepublic, you'll get called on to provide evidence for your statements, and if you can't provide it, you'll be taken for a loud-mouth bullshit artist.

As for Wesley Ellis . . . no, i don't read cowboy fiction, i've got better ways to spend my time.


"I'll bet you're a freeper"
There you go again, talking about something personal that you don't have the first clue about. I have never been to Free Republic, so be careful what accusations you make because you could get called on that & asked to provide backup, & if you can't (which I guarantee that you can't) we;ll talk about a loud mouth. mmmm 'k.
The point wasn't that you don't read "cowboy fiction", the point was, once again, you don't know what you're talking about.
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 09:26 pm
blatham wrote:
You're giving yourself away again, dearie.

A very insightful post, of course it would be helpful if you mentioned to whom you were posting & what you meant....could you do that for us? thanks.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Nov, 2006 09:30 pm
LOL
0 Replies
 
 

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