Intrepid wrote:Steve 41oo wrote:you know hezb it drives me wild when 'our side' is honest in saying we dont know, only for the religious minded to seize on that as a weakness, proclaiming their absolute faith...(in mutually incompatible ideas
). I would have more time for them if they too would say "well of course none of us can
know...but this works for
me". But they dont say that, they dishonestly claim to know some absolute truth. A plague on them all.
This may be what you are familiar with. It does happen.
I really don't think there is (or at least should be) a our side or their side. Even among those who believe there is our sides and their sides. Everyone wants to make their beliefs and opinions known but I don't think that people try to force those beliefs on others. (well, in some cases this happens)
Nobody can know for sure if what they believe is absolute. I have stated that on other threads. It is as you say....one makes a choice as to their beliefs, faith, lack of faith or whatever else comes along. They do so with the belief that it is right for them. That is not to say that it is right for everybody. For me, I have faith because I choose to have faith. It it should turn out in the end that I was wrong, I feel that I still win (not that others lose) because I lived as I chose.
Perhaps there shouldn't be Intrepid. But there is. I still respect your willingness to be honest and the faith you hold though.
Raul-7 wrote:hephzibah wrote:Raul, the only destiny life has to offer us is the destiny we create for ourselves.
A recent realization I've had.
It's not about what "God" you believe in. How long you've believed, not believed, or whatever. It's about living life to the absolute fullest. Some people choose to do that through their religion. Unfortunately sometimes they are so gung ho they hurt others in the process without realizing it. However, religion is definitely not the only cause of hurt in this world.
When I say living life to the fullest I mean enjoying the few brief moments we are given here on this earth. Living, loving, learning, and growing like today might be our last opportunity to do any of that. Because you know what Raul... It really might be. There are no guarantee's in life, or on how long we will live. On how many opportunities we will be given to tell someone we are sorry, or we love them. There is
Only here...
Now...
This moment...
I think that what hurts my heart the most as I step back and look at religion from a completely different perspective, and I mean ALL religion mind you, is how easily life itself is taken for granted, looked upon as something that is "deserved" rather than a gift. How much time and energy are spent on looking at and pointing out others wrongs, rather than seeing someone for how priceless they are, no matter how imperfect they may be.
Whether you want to admit it or not Raul, we all shape our own destiny. Ultimately that is the absolute truth. The thing is... everyone uses different tools to shape theirs. Some use religion. Some use science. Some just use whatever comes across their path. No matter what tool you or I use, it is still you or I that are shaping what happens next. Not God. Not Allah. Not president Bush. But you. And me. And to be able to do that is a gift that should be treasured rather than taken for granted.
When I say decreed destiny, I meant for example just say (God forbid) you got in accident tommorow and got paralized. This is decreed destiny, we of course choose the path we follow but some events are inevitable and unexpected - this is decreed destiny. That's why gave us the choice between following what's wrong and right. If he wished he couldv'e made us all perfect believers or destroyed each one of us whenever we commited a sin, however he is giving us the chance to see if eventually come around and follow the right path.
You're right, nothing is guaranteed in this life. We all will perish, but that's why we should strive for the hereafter. Imagine a life free of all wants and needs, where everything the soul desires will be at your finger tips and even somethings the mind can only dream of. No hunger, no stress, no ailments, no aging and no death. Truly it is where our real, eternal life will begin.
"Know ye (all), that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying, (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children. Here is a similitude: How rain and the growth which it brings forth, delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; thou wilt see it grow yellow; then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a Penalty severe (for the devotees of wrong). And Forgiveness from God and (His) Good Pleasure (for the devotees of God). And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception." (Al-Hadid 20)
I'll admit we can't control everything Raul. But to say there is a "decreed destiny" well that's just crazy darling. In order to believe that one would have to believe there was a "decreer". To believe that "God" decree's even an accident is well... just further proof for unbelievers of just how unjust this "God" is. I wish you could hear how ridiculous you sound. But you know what Raul? I respect your faith. Even though I don't agree with it.
echi wrote:Raul-7 wrote:We all will perish, but that's why we should strive for the hereafter. Imagine a life free of all wants and needs, where everything the soul desires will be at your finger tips and even somethings the mind can only dream of.
Hep,
Some people are so unsatisfied with life that they invest as much as they can in an imagined, alternative reality. It's classic denial.
That it is my friend.
Bartikus wrote:hephzibah wrote:Because "christian beliefs" say that God only "protects" you and yours as long as you serve Him and do things His way. Otherwise the "enemy" has a "legal right" to do whatever he wants to us. Therefore, "logically" speaking (according to christian beliefs that is) it could be considered my fault both my fathers are going through this because I no longer serve God, therefore He is under no obligation to protect me or anyone in my family. Satan has taken over my family.
If that were true heph..Christians who do serve God and do things his way....would never physically die. (scrap their knee, break legs, get a cold etc.)
Who do you know that serves God and God alone and did so his way....other than Jesus?
The grave could not hold him.
If your loved ones believe in Christ and accepted him as saviour...death and disease will not keep hold of them either. He has overcome this world.
Did Peter and Paul serve God better than you do you think? Why were they "destroyed"? Not with us in the physical yet better than ever. :wink:
I will be praying for you and yours.
Your brother in Christ,
Bart
P.S The enemy cannot do whatever he wants.
I appreciate the prayers Bart, however according to Mr. Raul here, they probably won't do much good since "God" apparently decreed both of my fathers to have cancer at this time. :wink:
cicerone imposter wrote:Hi heph, Let me tell you about my sister, a devout christian. Her husband was ill with Parkinsons and also had a heart attack. My sister, a nurse, worked and spent her days praying and caring for her husband 24/7, and truly believed he would regain his health. After his death, my sister told me she lost faith in god, and quit going to church. About one year later, she started attending church again, and is back where she started with her "faith."
I think this is typical of how christians react to their faith. I'm an atheist.
Hi CI. I've seen similar things over and over through the last 17 years. I did see a few miracles though too. I don't know what caused it. I know my "faith" told me it was "God". Here's the thing though CI. Many people will get angry at "God" and walk away. They don't really dismiss their faith completely, they just kind of set it aside because He didn't do what they wanted Him to do and they are mad. Eventually though, they pick it up again. Why? Because it's all they really know and REALLY stepping outside of that is just plain uncomfortable. I'm a little uncomfortable at this point in my life. I'm not really sure what's next, but you know... in a strange sort of way, that's perfectly ok too. I don't need to know right now.
I'm not saying I will or won't ever pick up my "faith" again, because anything is possible really. I'm human. Though my scenario is a little bit different. I'm not really mad at "God". I don't feel like "He" has done me any great injustice here. The most simple way to put it is to say that well... I got tricked into believing something I no longer believe is true. At least not to the extent I thought it was. Not this oogling "God" who is sitting on the edge of His throne, leaning over and watching ME out of such great care and concern, and wielding my life which ever direction "He" sees fit.
I haven't totally dismissed the idea that there may be something bigger than us out there, however I sincerely doubt it is this "God" that christianity proclaims. Or any religion for that matter. Ultimately I don't think it matters if we believe in something greater or not. If it helps someone cope with life and it's troubles... great, more power to them I guess. It was a great help to me for many years. But don't hit me over the head with this idea God is so loving and caring that he would decree my parents to get cancer to teach me a lesson or something. I ain't brainwashed enough to believe that kind of garbage any more.
And if there is a "God" I think "He's" being done a great disservice through people promoting those kinds of ridiculous ideas. However I'm beginning to see just how selfish "christianity" really is now. I'm beginning to see just how self-centered it is. Not to say that everyone who believes in that particular "God" is that way, but I'm talking about the general belief system of your "typical" believer. I'm really starting to think that the very "selfishness" I have struggled with lately was actually birthed within my belief system while I was walking within the confines of christianity.
Seriously. Think about this... I had everything a human ego could want. This "Being" that created everything with "His" attention focused on my every move. I literally was the center of the universe almost because of "His" concern for me, and the things "He" would do for me, simply because "He" created me. So of course I walked around feeling like I deserved more than I was getting out of life. Of course I felt like most everything was going to be handed to me simply because I "believed".
I was no better than the very people I beat over their heads because of what they've promoted here. I see that now, and I'm real sorry.
I'm real sorry for making my life all about me and then getting mad because no one wanted to stick around very long.
I'm sorry for being a hypocrite in so many ways because I was living a lie, but it was ok to do that because I "believed", you see.
*sigh*
It's all very sad you see. The merry-go-rounds we will put ourselves on sometimes, all in an effort to find "the truth". I still believe though that the best we as humans can really do is to live honestly, being real to ourselves and to others. That's all we've got to offer, and that is priceless no matter who it comes from... "believer" or "non-believer".
I wouldn't have you be any other way though, because then you wouldn't be you. 
