Christain Ease...

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Good morning everyone. Smile

I finally found a few spare minutes to start this thread I've been thinking about the last few days. It's about "christian ease". What I mean specifically is the christian language. It's similar to english, however entangled with a few misconceptions I believe.

Here's the scenario:

My real father has been diagnoses as a level four cancer patient.

My step father was told yesterday that the 3 1/2 inch lump on his lung is probably cancer.

I was thinking about this and I suddenly began to feel guilty. Like this is my fault.

Why? You ask. Well let me tell ya. Smile

Because "christian beliefs" say that God only "protects" you and yours as long as you serve Him and do things His way. Otherwise the "enemy" has a "legal right" to do whatever he wants to us. Therefore, "logically" speaking (according to christian beliefs that is) it could be considered my fault both my fathers are going through this because I no longer serve God, therefore He is under no obligation to protect me or anyone in my family. Satan has taken over my family. Shocked

Hummm.

Is it just me or does that really sound as ridiculous as I think it does?

So why then? Why should I feel guilty? Why would this "God" even put me in a position to struggle with feeling guilty like this if He is all loving, all knowing, all whatever?

I thought His love was unconditional.

Looking at this sure does make His love look conditional to me though. Cool

Ya'll have a nice day now... ya hear? :wink:

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Truly sorry to hear about your parents illness hephz.

But the real illness that is causing you to feel guilty is the Christian disease. This illness which is deliberately inflicted on innocent children often blights them for the rest of their lives. If you can leave it behind, it will be easier for you to give the practical help and support for family members who need it.

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<sigh>

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Well, I spent twenty one or twenty two years of my life as a Roman Catholic, and from the Catholic point of view, they are the one true church. I never was taught any of this business about ill health being a punishment for your sins - at least there was no emphasis in my experience on that - though Catholicism was full of guilt inducement in other ways, at least for me. So, all Christians don't think the same way on that.

I'm three times twenty-one now, and personally agree with Steve. However, there is a range of guilt inducement by various religions, and you may find other ones answer your own current needs/opinions better than what you've been exposed to so far in your life, if you are not fully ready to walk away from this kind of belief system. I'm thinking, for example, of the Unitarian Universalists, or Buddhism..

Anyway, I am sorry for your family's health troubles.

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hep wrote:

So why then? Why should I feel guilty? Why would this "God" even put me in a position to struggle with feeling guilty like this if He is all loving, all knowing, all whatever?

It isn't the god, whose very existence I question. It's the church. Make a person feel guilty, and he is your "slave" forever. Making people feel guilty about one thing or another is a wonderful way for a church (or other religious organization) keep their "flock" controlled.

You should not feel guilty. People have imperfect bodies, and are prone to various diseases of one sort or another. Some illness has to do with genetics, some environment, some personal lifestyle. That is the nature of being a human being.

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Why would "God" reduce your father and stepfather to mere pawns in your personal redemption.

Don't they have life scripts of their own?

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My my, I sure was laying on the sarcasm pretty thick this morning. Man I need to get more sleep. LOL

Alright, well you know, I know all belief systems don't teach this kind of stuff. Where I lived spiritually for 17 years did though. I don't know that anything I say will have an effect on anyone who still is totally engrossed in these kinds of beliefs. However, I've still got to say it. Even if it is out of sheer anger and disappointment. I don't care.

The anger and disappointment isn't based on my current circumstances though. It is the realization of how manipulated, lied to, and deceived I was. To realize how faith is really only used to mask things that either don't make sense logically, or that aren't understood and never could be. It's ridiculous and it makes me sad.

Is there a "God"? I don't know. I honestly don't. I can tell you this though, it is my opinion that if there is, He must be greatly disappointed in how He is being made out to be to people here.

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Noddy24 wrote:

Why would "God" reduce your father and stepfather to mere pawns in your personal redemption.

Don't they have life scripts of their own?

zackly my thoughts.

that's making yourself pretty important that your decisions are effecting their lives, but theirs aren't effecting yours.

kids say the darndest things.
Rolling Eyes

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Well Hepi, off the top on me little head I can think of several christians that post often on a2k that I regard with great esteem (Eva and Letty) I see no conflict with their thoughts or values mostly because they seem to regard people with a sense of value regardless of their religious inclinations and don't buy into "sin" as some sort of human condition needing to be reconciled. On the other hand, I am a heathen.

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dyslexia wrote:

... On the other hand, I am a heathen.

define heathen Smile

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Re: Christain Ease...

hephzibah wrote:

. . . Because "christian beliefs" say that God only "protects" you and yours as long as you serve Him and do things His way. Otherwise the "enemy" has a "legal right" to do whatever he wants to us. Therefore, "logically" speaking (according to christian beliefs that is) it could be considered my fault both my fathers are going through this because I no longer serve God, therefore He is under no obligation to protect me or anyone in my family. Satan has taken over my family. . .

Where did you get this idea?

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Neo:

Through going to church.

Through listening to what the preacher said.

Through talking to christians.

Through praying with christians.

Through going through tough stuff and getting that kind of thing as a response.

That's all I can think of right now.

I think I thought I even found it in the bible in a few places. However, I suspect that I may have misinterpreted a few things myself. Razz

I'll have to get back to the rest of you all later. Sorry...

Please let me say one more thing really quick though. I do think there are some sincerely good christians out there that regardless of what they believe, how they believe, or whatever, are good people. I have met several here at A2K that I respect. Not necessarily just because of what they believe, as much as who they are. I don't hate christianity, or christians. Though I'm a bit peeved in general at this point. I just don't want anyone to take anything I say here as a personal attack on themselves, because that's not how it's intended at all. I've officially broken my relation to "christianity" itself at this point. However, I still care for and respect many of the christians here just as much as I did before any of this happened. That much is not going to change, no matter how different our beliefs become.

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Hepzibah- As I have mentioned in the past, I am a big believer about not "throwing out the baby with the bathwater". There are many aspects of the Judeo-Christian tradition that are still relevent today. Even though I am an agnostic, I believe that many of the ethical and moral lessons that were developed in antiquity can be applicable to modern life.

Over the years, I have seen people who became estranged from their religion, and then discarded all of it. Personally, I think that is impractical, and denies some of the good "stuff" that the religious traditions teach.

The point is, one can live a good life, without being a religious automaton, merely parroting what one reads in the bible, or what the minister says in church. As a human being, we have the ability to think for ourselves, and our mind can be the compass that guides us.

By being a thinking person, one can incorporate some of the positive thoughts of the ethicists, the philosophers, and yes, even some of the religions. The point is, that what we choose to accept needs to come from our own thinking processes.

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hephzibah wrote:

Is there a "God"? I don't know. I honestly don't.

None of us can know. Oh for similiar honesty from the rabbis priests and imans.

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You are right phoenix. I'm not trying to do that anyway. I hope to hang on to the better qualities that I found within christianity without writing anyone off or umm... morals or something of some sort off. I think that's what I want to say. LOL

Steve, you are right. I agree.

Neo,

One thing I forgot to mention this morning. While explaining this situation to my boss at the christian agency I work for with the kids because I was repeatedly late last week her comment to me was, "God doesn't give you more than you can handle."

This is a common belief among christians. God somehow orchestrates everything, while not necessarily being "responsible" for it.

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you know hezb it drives me wild when 'our side' is honest in saying we dont know, only for the religious minded to seize on that as a weakness, proclaiming their absolute faith...(in mutually incompatible ideas Smile

). I would have more time for them if they too would say "well of course none of us can know...but this works for me". But they dont say that, they dishonestly claim to know some absolute truth. A plague on them all.

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I think that the important thing about any and all religions if the subjective effect it has on the believer. It does transform him somewhat and allows him not only to accept the mystery of his own consciousness but also integrates him into his society and promotes certain morays and rules of conduct.

The further you go back in history the more people were isolated in their own groups. They kept to themselves, and religious conflict between disparate groups was not as common as it is today. The world is very small now, and many people of conflicting religious views live in neighboring countries, the same country, or even the same neighborhood. Tribalism is not viable now.

It is necessary that organized religions stress the things they have in common with other religions and not the differences. Religions must moderate or there will be catastrophe and war. Wars now have the potential to escalate word wide and nuclear war is always a possibility.

I always liked the Roman use of syncretism. They would conquer an area and, instead of forcing the people to accept their religion, they would say, "What you call your god, we have another name, or your god is a local god and there is a larger god still.

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Steve 41oo wrote:

you know hezb it drives me wild when 'our side' is honest in saying we dont know, only for the religious minded to seize on that as a weakness, proclaiming their absolute faith...(in mutually incompatible ideas ). I would have more time for them if they too would say "well of course none of us can know...but this works for me". But they dont say that, they dishonestly claim to know some absolute truth. A plague on them all.

Me too steve. Me too.

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Re: Christain Ease...

hephzibah wrote:

Good morning everyone. I finally found a few spare minutes to start this thread I've been thinking about the last few days. It's about "christian ease". What I mean specifically is the christian language. It's similar to english, however entangled with a few misconceptions I believe.

Here's the scenario:

My real father has been diagnoses as a level four cancer patient.

My step father was told yesterday that the 3 1/2 inch lump on his lung is probably cancer.

I was thinking about this and I suddenly began to feel guilty. Like this is my fault.

Why? You ask. Well let me tell ya.

Because "christian beliefs" say that God only "protects" you and yours as long as you serve Him and do things His way. Otherwise the "enemy" has a "legal right" to do whatever he wants to us. Therefore, "logically" speaking (according to christian beliefs that is) it could be considered my fault both my fathers are going through this because I no longer serve God, therefore He is under no obligation to protect me or anyone in my family. Satan has taken over my family.

Hummm.

Is it just me or does that really sound as ridiculous as I think it does?

So why then? Why should I feel guilty? Why would this "God" even put me in a position to struggle with feeling guilty like this if He is all loving, all knowing, all whatever?

I thought His love was unconditional.

Looking at this sure does make His love look conditional to me though.

Ya'll have a nice day now... ya hear? :wink:

It has nothing to do you with you or how religious you are, this is part of the decreed destiny.

The difference between someone who has submitted to Allah and the destiny decreed by Him, and someone who is unable to perceive the reality of the situation is that the former is aware that whatever we do is the result of Allah's will however much we may experience it as our own independent initiative; while on the other hand, the person who is not aware of this mistakenly believes that our actions originate in our own wisdom and our own abilities. In fact, "Allah's command is a pre-ordained decree". (Surat al-Ahzab: 38).

I know plently of religious people who happen to suffer from very severe illnesses. But infact, this is somewhat of a blessing. As the Prophet was on his death-bed.

Narrated 'Abdullah:

I visited Allah's Apostle while he was suffering from a high fever. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! You have a high fever." He said, "Yes, I have as much fever as two men of you." I said, "Is it because you will have a double reward?" He said, "Yes, it is so. No Muslim is afflicted with any harm, even if it were the prick of a thorn, but that Allah expiates his sins because of that, as a tree sheds its leaves."

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Raul, the only destiny life has to offer us is the destiny we create for ourselves.

A recent realization I've had.

It's not about what "God" you believe in. How long you've believed, not believed, or whatever. It's about living life to the absolute fullest. Some people choose to do that through their religion. Unfortunately sometimes they are so gung ho they hurt others in the process without realizing it. However, religion is definitely not the only cause of hurt in this world.

When I say living life to the fullest I mean enjoying the few brief moments we are given here on this earth. Living, loving, learning, and growing like today might be our last opportunity to do any of that. Because you know what Raul... It really might be. There are no guarantee's in life, or on how long we will live. On how many opportunities we will be given to tell someone we are sorry, or we love them. There is

Only here...

Now...

This moment...

I think that what hurts my heart the most as I step back and look at religion from a completely different perspective, and I mean ALL religion mind you, is how easily life itself is taken for granted, looked upon as something that is "deserved" rather than a gift. How much time and energy are spent on looking at and pointing out others wrongs, rather than seeing someone for how priceless they are, no matter how imperfect they may be.

Whether you want to admit it or not Raul, we all shape our own destiny. Ultimately that is the absolute truth. The thing is... everyone uses different tools to shape theirs. Some use religion. Some use science. Some just use whatever comes across their path. No matter what tool you or I use, it is still you or I that are shaping what happens next. Not God. Not Allah. Not president Bush. But you. And me. And to be able to do that is a gift that should be treasured rather than taken for granted.

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Christain Ease...

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