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Any serious Christians left?

 
 
timberlandko
 
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Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 01:37 am
rl - acknowledgement of error where its due: you're right about the context of the Josephus remark - sorry 'bout that; I lost track of which discussion was at discusion.

My comment that Josephus does not provide provenance for Isaiah stands (as does my observation that you misrepresent to suit your agenda - but thats another matter); the Isaiah tradition would have been part of Josephus' religiocultural heritage, something he'd have neither reason nor basis to question, any more than you question the scripture you hold sacred. Anyhow, at particular reference were the purported prophecies of Isaiah, which led to the issue of that work deriving from multiple authors over a span of centuries. In that discussion, it was developed that that the majority consensus of legitimate biblical and historical scholars - presented through compelling, objective analysis - is that the 66 chapters of Isaiah comprise the work of multiple authors and redactors, its writing spanning a period from the 8th Century BCE into the 5th Century BCE, if not later.

You are welcome, of course, to dispute that, endorsing the minority position held all but exclusively by biblical literalists. A number of mutually corroborative mainstream academic and theologic references were provided, clearly establishing the majority consensus; you choose to not maccept them - fine, your choice. For a thoroughly Christian perspective on the matter, I refer you to The Unity and Authorship of Isaiah: A Needless Battle, by Dennis Brachter, Ordained Minister, PhD (Biblical Studies), Director of The Christian Resource Institute, and respected, prolific, widely cited, author of many books and articles of Biblical Studies and general Christian Apologetics.
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timberlandko
 
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Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 02:08 am
Arella Mae wrote:
Good grief Timber! What got the bee under your bonnet anyway? It would be different if I posted "you have to believe what I believe or you're going to hell" or some such thing[/co;or]

No it wouldn't - however phrased or modified that is a public declaration of faith - "Witnessing for the Lord", evangelical proselytization by any definition - you are not discussing faith or religion, you are declaring faith - there's a difference, though that difference often is lost on "Believers", most notably those "Believers" of fundamentalist stripe regardless which religious construct said "Believers" endorse and promote.

"Evangelism... witnessing... fulfilling the Great Commission... What does it all mean? Simply put, Christian evangelism is when we share our faith with others"
Ray Comfort


Quote:
Why can't a discussion be just that? An exchange of ideas, beliefs, etc., without someone having to call them absurd or whatever? I am NO VICTIM! I merely point out the fact I think it's rude and offensive to label others views as absurd, etc. That's just my opinion, of course.[/color]

I submit you again are claiming victimhood on the basis of the straw man argument that your beliefs or views (or those of anyone else) have been labeled absurd; in this discussion no such condition as you allege obtains; in specific, "Again, irrespective of any qualitative judgement pertaining to the fundmentalist/born-again/evangelical/whatever-have-you Christian proposition itself, the manner by which many here forward that proposition is absurd. Absurd as well is to claim victimhood for not successfuly having put one's case. (quote edited to correct a couple stupid, careless typos I just noticed Rolling Eyes Embarrassed)
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tycoon
 
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Reply Wed 18 Oct, 2006 04:22 pm
Are there any serious Christians left?

No, not really. The latest manifestation of Christians is akin to milksop-ism. There was the day when Christians took their religion seriously, bashing in the skulls of infidels, boldly lighting the fires in which a blasphemer was tied to a stake, gleefully twisting the thumbscrew of an alleged atheist.

Even a generation or two ago the Christian Cause was strong enough to don a white sheet over one's head and do the Lord's work late into the night.

Nowadays, it seems serious Christianity to some means typing a few words of defense on a electronic forum board and bemoaning the discrimination encountered by doing so. I will point out the obvious: That's pretty lame.

Onward Christian soldiers!
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Arella Mae
 
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Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 04:11 am
Tycoon,

Oh good grief! Rolling Eyes No matter how many times people are told that those kinds of things are not representative of true Christianity some still want to hang onto it like it's the gospel. Go figure! Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Phoenix32890
 
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Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 04:59 am
Arella Mae- I don't know your definition of "true" Christianity, but although tycoon IS going a bit far in his description (I think that the last rack went on sale in a discount store centuries ago Laughing ) I think that many people performed the deeds that tycoon describes in the name of Christianity. At the time, these behaviors were considered acceptable in the name of saving souls.

One needs to look at the behavior of Christians in its historical context, and not simply dismiss it as the work of some far out kooks in the religion.
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Intrepid
 
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Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 06:11 am
One also has to, or should, look at contemporary Christianity.
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Phoenix32890
 
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Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 06:32 am
Intrepid wrote:
One also has to, or should, look at contemporary Christianity.


I agree. I would suspect that the vast majority of Christians are nice people, who live their lives in the manner that they want, and don't attempt to foist their beliefs on others. I have absolutely no problem with that.

What I DO have a problem with, are those Christians who attempt to change law to conform to their particular religious beliefs. I have a problem with:

The President, who is denying science a great opportunity for medical breakthroughs by attmpting to control stem cell research because of his Christian religious views.

The people in government who are attempting to chip away at a woman's reproductive rights, because of their Christian religious views.

Our local representative, who forced a local library to dismantle a table of books on gay subjects, because of her Christian religious views.

I could go on and on. My point is that if left to their own devices, there are a group of "good Christians" who would turn the most democratic country in the world into a Christian theocracy.
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 06:50 am
there are a group of "good Christians" who would turn the most democratic country in the world into a Christian theocracy.
absolutely
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edgarblythe
 
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Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 07:10 am
By golly. Timber is so on the mark, I read his comments nodding yes all the way. Go, big bird.
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JPB
 
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Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 07:41 am
Did someone just say, "True Christianity"? grrrrrrr
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neologist
 
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Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 10:53 am
tycoon wrote:
Are there any serious Christians left?

No, not really. The latest manifestation of Christians is akin to milksop-ism. There was the day when Christians took their religion seriously, bashing in the skulls of infidels, boldly lighting the fires in which a blasphemer was tied to a stake, gleefully twisting the thumbscrew of an alleged atheist.

Even a generation or two ago the Christian Cause was strong enough to don a white sheet over one's head and do the Lord's work late into the night.

Nowadays, it seems serious Christianity to some means typing a few words of defense on a electronic forum board and bemoaning the discrimination encountered by doing so. I will point out the obvious: That's pretty lame.

Onward Christian soldiers!
You are asking someone to defend the nominal 'christianity' you have defined? I suggest you look up the definition of 'straw man'.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lilyth/cartoon/mrdid.jpg

Source
First, learn what Christianity is. Then state your objections.
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Treya
 
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Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 10:57 am
LOL neo!
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Arella Mae
 
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Reply Thu 19 Oct, 2006 06:54 pm
Phoenix,

I am going to address just one comment you made.


Quote:
What I DO have a problem with, are those Christians who attempt to change law to conform to their particular religious beliefs.


As I have said numerous times on A2K, we have the same exact right here. You vote your conscience just the same as anyone else. There is nothing in the constitution that says you "cannot" or "have to" consider your religious beliefs in voting.
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Phoenix32890
 
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Reply Fri 20 Oct, 2006 05:40 am
Arella Mae- I am a big believer in "live and let live". Let me give you an example. In Tampa, there is an ongoing brouhaha about the abundance of "gentlemen's clubs" (nude night clubs). Some of the people in the area are looking to restrict these venues.

Personally, I think that these clubs are awful. I think that the clubs turn women into sex objects, used simply for the pleasure of men. But I would never dream, if it were ever to be put up for a vote, to vote to restrict these clubs.

The point is, there are things that I would not personally want, but as long as it is not affecting me, in any meaningful way, I would not attempt to deprive other people of what they want.

I think that attempting to control or eliminate abortions, to restrict stem cell research, is attempting to control the lives of other people.

I would assume that you would not want YOUR life controlled by other people, based on THEIR beliefs.

Isn't that issue addressed in the saying, "Do unto others.................."?
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Arella Mae
 
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Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 06:42 am
No Phoenix actually it is not. You vote the way you vote for the reasons you do and I think everyone else does the same. Now, I may not like your reasons and you may not like mine but the plain and simple fact is we both have the same right period.

If God said something is wrong there is a reason for it. He didn't just make rules arbitrarily. The rules He made were for our benefit, though many don't see them that way I know.

I will not compromise my beliefs, Phoenix, not that anyone is asking me to. But if I believe something is wrong in the eyes of God because the Bible says it is well, then I am going to vote against it everytime. Quite a few on A2K don't like that about me but hey, what matters to me is what God thinks and me sticking to my beliefs and principles and being true to God and myself.
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Phoenix32890
 
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Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 06:49 am
Arella Mae wrote:
If God said something is wrong there is a reason for it. He didn't just make rules arbitrarily. The rules He made were for our benefit, though many don't see them that way I know.


I think that this is where we digress, intellectually. In order to comprehend what you have just written, I would have to believe:

There is a god.

He made rules for people to follow.

He made these rules for peoples' benefit.

I cannot make any sense of your premises.
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timberlandko
 
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Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 09:30 am
A M, you overlook the simple fact that The Constitution guarantees Freedom of Religion for all - a circumstance which precludes any from imposing their religion on others. That which you advocate stands in contradiction to a bedrock principle of American Democracy, a principle written not merely in ink but in the blood of those who've given all to establish and defend The Constitution.

Of course, that such agenda would proceed from the demographic of which you are a constituant is unsurprising. Christians, not alone among relgigionists, pick, choose, and interpret from among their foundational writings as they see fit in light of whatever agenda they might at any one time care to press, and in the minds of such hypocrites, The Constitution provides no barrier to the agenda of the moment.

Of course as well, Freedom of Speech guarantees forum for the pressing of said agenda. That, however, in no way renders said agenda any less reprehensible.
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husker
 
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Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 07:24 pm
Intrepid wrote:
husker wrote:
are they being killed off?


Hi Husker.

I don't know why, but this struck as terribly funny and gave me a much needed chuckle.


I was thinking Lions, tigers, and bears - oh my Laughing
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husker
 
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Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 07:25 pm
why ypu guys talk about strawmen thems cousins to my stickboy avi Crying or Very sad
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timberlandko
 
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Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 07:31 pm
Good job husker - I gotta nice chuckle out of that one.
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