Any serious Christians left?

maporsche wrote:

I'd also like to point out that not everyone's vote matters in our current system. This law for example was passed by a 200+ margin of lawmakers. Something like 70% of the house voted for this bill. My single vote for the congressman of my single district would have had ZERO influence on this bill.

The Christian right has been feeling disenfranchised lately and beginning to froth at the mouth a bit. This vote is the political equivalent of throwing them a bone. The politicos hope it will tone them down a little while not being something the general populace cares enough about to cause a backlash.

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What has that to do with what we are talking about? We are talking about our rights to lobby to have laws changed that we don't like.

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At least 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War, and some experts say the toll reached 700,000. The number that is most often quoted is 620,000. At any rate, these casualties exceed the nation's loss in all its other wars, from the Revolution through Vietnam.

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Dys, for goodness sake! Of course I realize that there were wars, etc., that also brought about changes in things. But the whole point is, if we don't like the way something is there is a process to change it and everyone decides which side of the fence they want to be on.

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Lobbying to change laws is only a part of the equation. There are certain fundamental rights the law in theory cannot touch, although it happens that these rights are sometimes trampled on, until the national consciousness recognizes the error, or some somewhat enlightened Judge steps in. Homosexuals are being denied certain fundamental rights the rest of us take for granted. It should not be changed laws that correct that, but the enforcement of existing laws.

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maporsche wrote:

AM, would you support Christianity as the Official Religion of the United States.

Maporsche, I thought about this and decided I would answer you.

No, I would not vote to make Christianity or ANY religion the religion of the United States for the following reasons:

1) religion is a personal choice it is not something you can force someone to accept;

2) it is completely against the constitution of the United States.

Now, would I like to see everyone a Christian? Of course, because I feel that is is a wonderful thing, but it is every INDIVIDUAL'S CHOICE, not everyone feels as I do and that is their God-given and constitutional right. It cannot be forced upon anyone to accept it even if it was a law!

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Arella Mae wrote:

Dys, for goodness sake! Of course I realize that there were wars, etc., that also brought about changes in things. But the whole point is, if we don't like the way something is there is a process to change it and everyone decides which side of the fence they want to be on.

No, it's not, the whole point is to have enough humanity to grant to all persons all the freedoms to be themselves as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. I have plastic flamengos in my yard but i harm no one. Not only that, I have been known to have sexual relations in other than the missionary position (which is illegal in some christian dominated locales)

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Arella Mae wrote:

echi wrote:
Arella,

Would you support my right to lobby to have your rights taken away?

How many times do I have to say it, Echi? Yes, I would support your right to lobby for it. I wouldn't vote for it but it is your constitutional right to lobby for it.

Okay.

I'm sorry if you have stated elsewhere, but what do you mean by "lobby", exactly?

Are we talkin' letters? emails? petitions? giving money to help buy politicians? Stuff like that?

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dyslexia wrote:

Arella Mae wrote:
Dys, for goodness sake! Of course I realize that there were wars, etc., that also brought about changes in things. But the whole point is, if we don't like the way something is there is a process to change it and everyone decides which side of the fence they want to be on.

No, it's not, the whole point is to have enough humanity to grant to all persons all the freedoms to be themselves as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. I have plastic flamengos in my yard but i harm no one. Not only that, I have been known to have sexual relations in other than the missionary position (which is illegal in some christian dominated locales)

Then change the laws, dys! If you don't like it do something about it! What is so hard to understand? If I like what your law states then I'll vote for it, if I don't then I won't. Same thing with you and everyone else. We either vote for or against or don't vote at all.

Can't you see? Because I don't agree with your view you think I am wrong? You have decided I am wrong! You are doing the same thing you are accusing me of, dys. It's no different. You are telling me I am wrong (inhibiting my constitutional right) in exercising my constitutional right while you are telling me I am wrong in trying to inhibit someone else's constitutional right by voting my conscience. If you vote no and I vote yes then we are each imposing our views on the other one. We have the same right. Laughing

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echi wrote:

Arella Mae wrote:
echi wrote:
Arella,

Would you support my right to lobby to have your rights taken away?

How many times do I have to say it, Echi? Yes, I would support your right to lobby for it. I wouldn't vote for it but it is your constitutional right to lobby for it.

Okay.

I'm sorry if you have stated elsewhere, but what do you mean by "lobby", exactly?

Are we talkin' letters? emails? petitions? giving money to help buy politicians? Stuff like that?

I mean within legal limits, Echi. Within the law.

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Arella Mae wrote:

echi wrote:
I'm sorry if you have stated elsewhere, but what do you mean by "lobby", exactly?

Are we talkin' letters? emails? petitions? giving money to help buy politicians? Stuff like that?

I mean within legal limits, Echi. Within the law.

Bound only by the limits of the law. I see.

Where does your religion step in?

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echi wrote:

Arella Mae wrote:
echi wrote:
I'm sorry if you have stated elsewhere, but what do you mean by "lobby", exactly?

Are we talkin' letters? emails? petitions? giving money to help buy politicians? Stuff like that?

I mean within legal limits, Echi. Within the law.

Bound only by the limits of the law. I see.

Where does your religion step in?

Echi, let me ask you a question? Why do you and others keep trying to drag my religion into something that I don't drag it into in any other way than voting my conscience? The only way my religion has anything to do with this is what I base my morals on. Now, that is ME. That is what I base MY morals on. You base yours on something just as everyone else does. I may or may not like your morals. I may or may not like what you would vote for. So I see no difference here, Echi. I vote my conscience.....................I'm really getting tired of saying that. Laughing

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Arella Mae wrote:

[quote="The ones that actually voted for this law were voted into office by the people. The people entrusted them to vote for them. Same thing.

Quote:

I guess the same right you have to not (seemingly) like the fact that I practice Christianity? And don't say it effects you because I'll turn right around and tell you that your vote effects me too. It's a 50/50 thing here and you just don't seem to want to accept that maporsche.

Quote:

Then I suggest you get together enough people to lobby to change the law, dys. That is how it works. If you don't like it, then do something to change it. I don't have a problem with that at all and I would back your right to lobby to change the law in a heartbeat. I may not vote for the law (generalized) but I will support your right to try to change it.

There are a few problems with the premise in the above quotes:

1. The constitution established our government in a form that makes individuals all equal in the eyes of the law. When you start passing laws that create exceptions to that, you start eroding the constitution.

2. The constitution gets further eroded when presidential executive orders are used to negate or avoid congressional process. We are no longer a representational government when this occurs. The voting process becomes meaningless.

3. The constitution was created to protect the rights of the individual (person, state) against imposition of majority rule.

What's being discussed is the difference between voting for laws that protect an individual's rights from the whims of the majority, and usurping the voting process to impose majority rule onto an individual.

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Arella Mae wrote:

Echi, let me ask you a question? Why do you and others keep trying to drag my religion into something that I don't drag it into in any other way than voting my conscience? The only way my religion has anything to do with this is what I base my morals on. Now, that is ME. That is what I base MY morals on. You base yours on something just as everyone else does. I may or may not like your morals. I may or may not like what you would vote for. So I see no difference here, Echi. I vote my conscience.....................I'm really getting tired of saying that.

Arella, do you still believe this to be true?

Arella Mae wrote:

Shazzer,

I understand your outlook on how things change. However, I believe that things are not changing for the better. Things that were not tolerated in the past are becoming increasingly more tolerated, even to the point of laws being written to make it legal for a man to marry a man, and a woman to marry a woman.

This is exactly what I mean when I say that God's laws do not change. Man changes the laws. The reason man changes the laws is because man does not want to adhere to the behavior that he should. So, if we change the law of the land does that change God's laws? No, it does not.

I feel man changing the laws to bend to his will is just a justification and lures them into a false sense of security thinking if it's the law, then it must be ok.

God's laws take precedent over any man's law.

1487106

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JPB wrote:

Arella, do you still believe this to be true?

JPB, I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean why do I think people keep trying to drag my religion into it or why do I still believe we all vote our conscience and have the same rights?

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mesquite wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
You are, if I understand you correctly, saying that elected representatives voted on this bill. Representatives that were elected by the people to run things for them.

If you are unhappy with the decisions they make....vote them out. You can't blame everything on religion. Well, you can....but that doesn't make it right.

However we can blame the political activity of the religious right in this country. That is something that Canadians have not yet had to be much concerned about, but if I read the tea leaves correctly your day is coming. Coming that is unless your southern neighbors develop the proper combination of chemotherapy treatments.

One would think that exposure to the consequences of fundamentalist theocracies such as Iran and Afghanistan would cause the American version to back off, but instead it seems to have emboldened them.

I have to agree with you there. Perhaps my understanding of a lot of this is somewhat naive because we do not have these situations in Canada. We never even hear about that type of thing in Canada.

I fervently hope that you are wrong about Canada becoming tainted with the same brush.

Maybe you can now understand a little better why I seem to keep the political element separate from the religious. My religion is between me and God. Not me and the government. My politics are between me and my government. Not me and God. Sometimes there is, however, a bit of overlap.

Maybe that is why I find myself in disagreement with many of the posts by fellow Christians.

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JPB wrote:

Arella Mae wrote:
Echi, let me ask you a question? Why do you and others keep trying to drag my religion into something that I don't drag it into in any other way than voting my conscience? The only way my religion has anything to do with this is what I base my morals on. Now, that is ME. That is what I base MY morals on. You base yours on something just as everyone else does. I may or may not like your morals. I may or may not like what you would vote for. So I see no difference here, Echi. I vote my conscience.....................I'm really getting tired of saying that.

Arella, do you still believe this to be true?

Arella Mae wrote:
Shazzer,

I understand your outlook on how things change. However, I believe that things are not changing for the better. Things that were not tolerated in the past are becoming increasingly more tolerated, even to the point of laws being written to make it legal for a man to marry a man, and a woman to marry a woman.

This is exactly what I mean when I say that God's laws do not change. Man changes the laws. The reason man changes the laws is because man does not want to adhere to the behavior that he should. So, if we change the law of the land does that change God's laws? No, it does not.

I feel man changing the laws to bend to his will is just a justification and lures them into a false sense of security thinking if it's the law, then it must be ok.

God's laws take precedent over any man's law.
1487106

And your point is? I wouldn't break God's laws JPB. But honestly, do you know any laws of the land that go against God's laws right now that say I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING? They only make things permissible by man's law. It doesn't mean that I HAVE to engage in it. Also, I would not vote for a law that would break God's laws, which would be voting my conscience.

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Arella, I meant the post below, do you still believe what you said below to be true?

Arella Mae wrote:

Shazzer,

I understand your outlook on how things change. However, I believe that things are not changing for the better. Things that were not tolerated in the past are becoming increasingly more tolerated, even to the point of laws being written to make it legal for a man to marry a man, and a woman to marry a woman.

This is exactly what I mean when I say that God's laws do not change. Man changes the laws. The reason man changes the laws is because man does not want to adhere to the behavior that he should. So, if we change the law of the land does that change God's laws? No, it does not.

I feel man changing the laws to bend to his will is just a justification and lures them into a false sense of security thinking if it's the law, then it must be ok.

God's laws take precedent over any man's law. 1487106

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JPB wrote:

Arella, I meant the post below, do you still believe what you said below to be true?

Arella Mae wrote:
Shazzer,

I understand your outlook on how things change. However, I believe that things are not changing for the better. Things that were not tolerated in the past are becoming increasingly more tolerated, even to the point of laws being written to make it legal for a man to marry a man, and a woman to marry a woman.

This is exactly what I mean when I say that God's laws do not change. Man changes the laws. The reason man changes the laws is because man does not want to adhere to the behavior that he should. So, if we change the law of the land does that change God's laws? No, it does not.

I feel man changing the laws to bend to his will is just a justification and lures them into a false sense of security thinking if it's the law, then it must be ok.

God's laws take precedent over any man's law. 1487106

Maybe you were posting this when I posted my last post. I thought that answered it, JPB. I know of no laws that actually would force me to break any of God's laws, do you?

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That wasn't the question. Do you still believe that the laws of your God should take precedence over the law of the land for all Americans? (which goes back to a discussion we had almost a year ago).

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Any serious Christians left?

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