The Flood

gungasnake wrote:

Why the rage to deny something which you clearly do not know jack **** about?

Your snakeoil is putrid gunga, nobody's buyin it.

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farmerman wrote:

Ros, I was not deep in the debate of whether the religious point was valid for me and (probably you too).

Hi FM, I know. My comment wasn't directed at you so much as it was just a general comment on the inference you brought up. Also, Gunga and others use these forums as their soapbox, so I am feeling free to do the same.

farmerman wrote:

I used to be quite impatient regarding this and , over the last few years have developed more of a "quiet smile" while still (hopefully) retaining a sense of mutual interest that the subject demands.

I don't like name calling either, other than to call a snake a snake and a spade a spade.

We spend a lot of time being tolerant of other people's ideas, and trying to listen and discuss, but I think it's somtimes good to remind people that there's no real discussion to be had regarding evolution (as a general system), and regarding ID (as anything other than pseudo-scientific non-sense), and regarding Noah's flood as anything other than pure fantasy.

Evolution is simply a fact, there's no way around it. The Earth is not flat. Noah's flood didn't happen. These are not points of real discussion. All we're doing is entertaining ourselves with discourse, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I think we need to remind everyone periodically that it's not a real discussion.

Nobody really discusses this stuff, other than as entertainment. If your life was in danger and your doctor said you had only moments to get it right, or your brain was going to freeze and quit, most of us wouldn't equivocate.

Here's the bottom line: In as much as humans are capable of KNOWING anything, we know that evolution is a fact. We know that the Earth isn't flat, and that Noah's global flood didn't happen.

Our ability to understand the world is predicated on naturalism and science has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that certain things are true.

Those people who choose to believe in a world in which omnipotent magic supercedes their ability to know anything, are free to do so, but they have chosen a position in which they cannot understand things. Those people do not stand on equal ground with people who really do understand the world around them. They are not free to challenge our science with their magic.

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gungasnake wrote:

For instance, the whole world now accepts the idea that you cannot take material things with you. The day before Jesus was born, NOBODY believed that.

gunga,

The Legend of Jesus tells us that he flew up to an actual place called Heaven, physical body and all, and that some of us will do the same.

How is that a radical shift AWAY from materialism?

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echi wrote:

The Legend of Jesus tells us that he flew up to an actual place called Heaven, physical body and all, and that some of us will do the same.

Where do you get that ****? I mean, you obviously didn't get that from any sort of a bible or any sort of a Christian church that I've ever seen or heard of.

Jesus was seen by large numbers of people for about 40 days after he'd been crucified and his body had disappeared from its tomb.

Now, this was a spiritual/paranormal sort of thing and not a physical thing, obviously, and what I mean is that if Jesus had walked around Jerusalem in a physical body for 40 days after being crucified, the Romans would have assuredly noticed that, seized him, and crucified him again only with bigger nails and chains and built a moat around the place with crocodiles in it.

It's a 100% safe and sure bet that Jesus has no more use for dead bodies than you or I would.

Other than that, whatever happened to Jesus' body is basically one of life's mysteries. Roman soldiers were guarding that tomb and you assume they'd been told they'd be killed if anything untowards happened or the body disappeared and, basically, all anybody ever had to do to stop Christianity from day one is produce one body, and they weren't able to do that.

As to the witnesses who saw Jesus after the crucifixion, many if not most went to their deaths rather than deny what they'd seen. You will never find any sort of a conspiracy in which people go to their deaths for something they know to be a lie with no rational motive.

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gungasnake wrote:

You will never find any sort of a conspiracy in which people go to their deaths for something they know to be a lie with no rational motive.

You really shouldn't make statements such as these.

What about the Heaven's Gate people for one.

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gungasnake wrote:

For instance, the whole world now accepts the idea that you cannot take material things with you. The day before Jesus was born, NOBODY believed that.

That's not the only reason people put things in coffins - some still do it to this day and nobody believes the items will be transported anywhere.

And do you know for a fact that the whole world believes that? Or that everyone believed it before he died? You make a few generalizations, hmmm?

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gungasnake wrote:

echi wrote:

The Legend of Jesus tells us that he flew up to an actual place called Heaven, physical body and all, and that some of us will do the same.

Where do you get that ****? I mean, you obviously didn't get that from any sort of a bible or any sort of a Christian church that I've ever seen or heard of.

Hey, that's great if you don't buy the physical resurrection story. It is, however, a cornerstone belief for every type of Christian I've ever heard of.

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echi wrote:

Hey, that's great if you don't buy the physical resurrection story. It is, however, a cornerstone belief for every type of Christian I've ever heard of.

Ressurection of the body is a cornerstone of voodoo:

http://www.danieldrezner.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=736

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What is that link for?

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gungasnake,

Idea

You should start a thread.

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echi wrote:

gungasnake wrote:
echi wrote:

The Legend of Jesus tells us that he flew up to an actual place called Heaven, physical body and all, and that some of us will do the same.

Where do you get that ****? I mean, you obviously didn't get that from any sort of a bible or any sort of a Christian church that I've ever seen or heard of.

Hey, that's great if you don't buy the physical resurrection story. It is, however, a cornerstone belief for every type of Christian I've ever heard of.

Gunga, I think you will find this pretty much standard among evangelicals.

Quote:

Statement of Beliefs
God

There is but one God and we worship Him only. He is the Creator and Sustainer of life as well as being the Father of Jesus the Christ. We believe Scripture reveals that God exists in three persons at one time, which are manifested as:

The Father, who is in control;
Jesus the Son, who has always dealt with man; and,
The Spirit, who has always been the operational force of God.

Jesus

Jesus the Christ is the only begotten Son of God and, during His time on Earth, He was God incarnate, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin, died on the cross for us as a substitutional sacrifice, and then rose after three days in a glorified bodily form, ascended into heaven where He now sits at the right hand of God interceding on our behalf. We recognize Jesus as the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Source

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I have to agree with EpiNirvana that the idea of a worldwide flood seems "incredibly insane." I cannot understand why people choose to ignore scientific facts in favor of ancient myths, especially when the myths paint a picture of a vengeful God who destroys anyone who displeases him. What really boggles my mind is that people actually believe that a God who drowned millions of men, women, children and babies as well as most of the animals on Earth can be trusted not to do it again. Yeah, I know he "promised" not to flood the entire earth any more. But apparently "local" tsunamis that kill a few hundred thousand people and wipe out entire villages do not count, nor does widespread devastation due to entire river basins being underwater for months.

Note that God's promise did not include asteroids, plagues, drought, fire, poisonous animals, or any of the myriad methods mentioned in Revelation. Why would anyone have faith in a God who claims to love them but will throw them in hell if they don't worship his son and apparently intends to wipe out most of the people on earth, after first inflicting pain and suffering on them in admittedly-creative ways?

I guess if your mind accepts the premise of a loving God who tortures and kills, it is not a stretch to believe that massive amounts of water could magically appear and disappear, a wooden boat could carry stocks of animals from all over the earth for a year with only 8 people to feed them and shovel manure, cultural histories which omit Noah and the flood do not count, and the geologic record may be interpreted to coincide with Bible stories rather than scientific principles.

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gungasnake wrote:

maporsche wrote:
Where are these cities 2000 feet below the sea? Did I miss something on the news?

Apparently. [a whole lotta links to the same old stories]

etc. etc. etc.

As in, ruins 2000 feet beneath the waves. As in, global catastrophe.

Your links all reference old stories, with fantastic speculations but very few photos. A 2004 expedition had equipment problems, and I can find absolutely nothing since then. If there is really anything man-made there, why hasn't it been reported? I suspect that ADC's claims of a submerged city were wishful thinking at best. The fact that they were reported by reputable sites such as the BBC and National Geographic does not make them true.

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Terry wrote:

I cannot understand why people choose to ignore scientific facts in favor of ancient myths, especially when the myths paint a picture of a vengeful God who destroys anyone who displeases him.

... especially when there are probably hundreds of similar "flood myths" from all over the world.

Here is a LINK to some of them.

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Terry wrote:

I cannot understand why people choose to ignore scientific facts in favor of ancient myths, especially when the myths paint a picture of a vengeful God who destroys anyone who displeases him.

Indoctrination since childhood. Believe what we tell you or burn in hell forever.

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rosborne979 wrote:

Terry wrote:
I cannot understand why people choose to ignore scientific facts in favor of ancient myths, especially when the myths paint a picture of a vengeful God who destroys anyone who displeases him.

Indoctrination since childhood. Believe what we tell you or burn in hell forever.

Indeed but there is sound reason why the child MUST believe. Children dont have the luxury of questioning or testing the proposition there are crocodiles in the river. As Richard Dawkins said in his book children have to believe to survive. When adults tell them its necessary to sacrifice a goat to make it rain, they believe that too. A waste of time and goats.

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Not to dwell on a point but, even if true gunga, how does a city that is 2000ft deeper than the present ocean surface help you in explaining a universal flood. Did all the earth, just after the flood, just suddenly
expand like a big toasted marshmallow?

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Steve 41oo wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
Terry wrote:
I cannot understand why people choose to ignore scientific facts in favor of ancient myths, especially when the myths paint a picture of a vengeful God who destroys anyone who displeases him.

Indoctrination since childhood. Believe what we tell you or burn in hell forever.
Indeed but there is sound reason why the child MUST believe. Children dont have the luxury of questioning or testing the proposition there are crocodiles in the river. As Richard Dawkins said in his book children have to believe to survive. When adults tell them its necessary to sacrifice a goat to make it rain, they believe that too. A waste of time and goats.

So you agree. Indoctrination.

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Quote:

So you agree. Indoctrination.

yes very much so. And very effective indoctrination in the sense that few adults can throw off completely religious imprinting as a child. Presenting myth and legend to a child as fact is abuse of that child's trust. And its still child abuse even if the adult believes it to be fact.

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Last night I read that if the Poles melted the w\entire Earth would be covered in water! Of course, the flood story is still bullshit...

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