The United States was not founded as a Christian nation

Terry wrote:

The Founding Fathers had to justify rebelling against a King whose authority, according to the Bible, had been established by God himself.

Balls. Find out about the English civil war and the Glorious Revolution of 1688.

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of
America

-snipped the complete quoting of the Declaration of Indepenance-

From: R.P. Nettelhorst, "Notes on the Founding Fathers and the Separation of Church and State", posted on Quartz Hill School of Theology website (http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm; viewed 30 November 2005):
Benjamin Franklin, the delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention. He has frequently been used as a source for positive "God" talk. It is often noted that Franklin made a motion at the Constitutional convention that they should bring in a clergyman to pray for their deliberations:
In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when present to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings?... I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men.



(Catherine Drinker Bowen. Miracle at Philadelphia
: The Story of the Constitutional Convention, May to September 1787. New York: Book-of-the-Month Club, 1966, pp. 125-126)
...Franklin presented his motion after "four or five weeks" of deliberation, during which they had never once opened in prayer... Franklin's motion was voted down... [Franklin] made the motion during an especially trying week of serious disagreement, when the convention was in danger of breaking up. Cathrine Drinker Bowen comments:
Yet whether the Doctor had spoken from policy or from faith, his suggestion had been salutary, calling an assembly of doubting minds to a realization that destiny herself sat as guest and witness in this room. Franklin had made solemn reminder that a republic of thirteen united states - venture novel and daring - could not be achieved without mutual sacrifice and a summoning up of men's best, most difficult and most creative efforts. (Bowen, p. 127)
About March 1, 1790, [Franklin] wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion...:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)
He died just over a month later on April 17.
http://www.adherents.com/people/pf/Benjamin_Franklin.html

--------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe he was just trying to keep the convention together.
P

Pauligirl wrote:

Maybe he was just trying to keep the convention together.
P

Are you suggesting that he dishonestly represented his own views in order to patronize the delegates?

real life wrote:

Pauligirl wrote:

Maybe he was just trying to keep the convention together.
P

Are you suggesting that he dishonestly represented his own views in order to patronize the delegates?

I think in politics, that's called being diplomatic.
P

I guess to answer the question of Jefferson's religious leanings, we would need to collect numerous examples of his description of his belief, as well as understand the circumstances in which he said it.

If the quote we've been discussing above exists in isolation, and appears out of character when compared to the bulk of Jefferson's notes, then I would suspect that he was just trying to keep the convention together.

If however, the general tenor of his writings as he got older, reflected ideas similar to those expressed in the convention, then I would have to give this round to RL.

RL started this whole thing by arguing that Jefferson changed his way of thinking as he got older. RL submitted that quote as evidence, and while I can see the logic of assuming Jefferson was just being diplomatic, I don't think we can argue subterfuge and dishonesty as a way to support our position that Jefferson was basically a Deist.

Right now, we have an isolated incident, under questionable circumstances, so I'm not convinced of Jefferson's theistic leanings. RL, do you have more quotes you would like to submit to support your claim?

errr....I thought we were talking about Franklin....
P

Mindonfire wrote:

Actually the more intelligent the person, the more likely they will come to the realisation that there is a Creator. Many of those whom you all consider to be intelligent are not really as intelligent as they think. To be considered intelligent in one field does not always translt to overall intelligence. You can't always measure intelligence with an SAT.

Secondly the Church has an embarrassing record of interference in scientific inquiry. The Church may interfere, but it cannot restrict what is in the Mind.

The problem is that the majority is not even aware of who or what God is. If you really knew who or what God is then you will find out that a lot of people actually believe in Him.

And who is god?

Steve 41oo wrote:

Mindonfire wrote:

Actually the more intelligent the person, the more likely they will come to the realisation that there is a Creator. Many of those whom you all consider to be intelligent are not really as intelligent as they think. To be considered intelligent in one field does not always translt to overall intelligence. You can't always measure intelligence with an SAT.

Secondly the Church has an embarrassing record of interference in scientific inquiry. The Church may interfere, but it cannot restrict what is in the Mind.

The problem is that the majority is not even aware of who or what God is. If you really knew who or what God is then you will find out that a lot of people actually believe in Him.

And who is god?

I didn't see this get answered. Maybe the question should have been WHAT is God?

God is One but exists in many dimensions.

Mindonfire wrote:

God is One but exists in many dimensions.

God is "One" what?

Which dimensions?

How do you know this?

Winston Churchill's son Randolph somehow contrived to remain ignorant of scripture until Evelyn Waugh and a brother officer, in a vain attempt to keep Churchill quiet when they were posted together during the war, bet him he couldn't read the entire Bible in a fortnight: 'Unhappily it has not had the result we hoped. He has never ready any of it before and is hideously excited; keeps reading quoatiaons aloud "I say I be you didn't know this came in the Bible..." or merely slapping his side and chortling "God, isnt God a sh!t!"