The United States was not founded as a Christian nation

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Treaty with Tripoli draftedn 1796 under George Washington and signed by John Adams in 1797:

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As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity agaisnt the laws, religion, or tranquility of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties tha no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries

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You are right, Steve. I went to the web to search out this little known document. Hmmm. So that is why John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were at odds with each other. I also found out that Jefferson did not say:

Millions for defense; not one cent for tribute. It was , however, the beginning of the Marine Corps, and that explains the lyrics to the song.

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That may be true.
But it is also true that MOST of the founder's believed in GOD.
So America may not have been founded as a CHRISTIAN nation, but it was founded as a nation with a GOD.

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IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable RightsThat to secure these rights, Governments are institutedForm of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

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As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity agaisnt the laws, religion, or tranquility of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties tha no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries

I disagree. I think that what was being said here is not that the US wasn't founded on christian beliefs but rather those that govern it do not necessarily function within christian principles therefore the government itself is not founded on christian beliefs. However, the reason for the break off from Great Britain is because certain "unalienable rights" given to them by their Creator were being violated therefore it became the job of the government to protect those rights, regardless of their personal status within a "religion".

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maybe I'm dense hep, but where does it specifically mention chistian as opposed to other faiths?

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Christ, Chrisitianity or Christian is not mentioned in the Declaration.

Moreover within a few years as the Treaty with Tripoli shows, The Government of the United States specifically denies Christ, and does a deal with the Muslims.

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The founding fathers were deists, and the early treaties were a necessity because the country was young and not financially sound.

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Letty wrote:

The founding fathers were deists...

And free thinkers and intellectuals and a lot of them masons.

I started this thread because I'm reading Richard Dawkins The God Delusion and he mentioned the fact that The United States was specifically not founded as a Christian country...something too many Americans dont want to know imo.

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Everybody that believes in a Creator or God does not have to be a Christian. Evidently those founding fathers believed in some Diety. One can be an intellectual and still believe in the Creator. Belief in God does not restrict your ability to think and imagine.

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Mindonfire wrote:

Belief in God does not restrict your ability to think and imagine.

I heartily disagree. Thinking presupposes a rational process. Believing in a god involves faith, which is the suspension of reason. Faith and reason, IMO, cannot coexist. as soon as one suspends one's reason, anything goes.

That is not to say that humans are perfect, and that reasonable and rational people do not make mistakes. Often a person's knowledge is faulty, or incomplete. The problem is when a person relies on faith to provide the answers that he cannot access within his power of reasoning.

"Imagine"??? Anyone can imagine anything that they want, but that does not make their musings truth.

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Quote:

Everybody that believes in a Creator or God does not have to be a Christian.

True

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Evidently those founding fathers believed in some Diety.

But not the Trinity or in Jesus as the Son of God.

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One can be an intellectual and still believe in the Creator.

again true, but the more educated/intelligent the person, the less likely they are to believe in a Creator.

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Belief in God does not restrict your ability to think and imagine.

I think it does, the Church has an embarrassing record of interference in scientific enquiry.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Mindonfire wrote:
Belief in God does not restrict your ability to think and imagine.

I heartily disagree. Thinking presupposes a rational process. Believing in a god involves faith, which is the suspension of reason. Faith and reason, IMO, cannot coexist. as soon as one suspends one's reason, anything goes. . .

You are defining credulity. While it is true that faith is often defined as belief without proof, it is also defined as loyalty or confidence, qualities denoting a mental state based on reason. In fact, Paul defines faith as " . . . the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." (Hebrews 11:1)

The same error has been perpetrated by so called believers and their opportunistic priests. The history of mankind is stained with their blood.

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Steve 41oo wrote:

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Everybody that believes in a Creator or God does not have to be a Christian.

True

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Evidently those founding fathers believed in some Diety.

But not the Trinity or in Jesus as the Son of God.

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One can be an intellectual and still believe in the Creator.
again true, but the more educated/intelligent the person, the less likely they are to believe in a Creator.
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Belief in God does not restrict your ability to think and imagine.
I think it does, the Church has an embarrassing record of interference in scientific enquiry.

Actually the more intelligent the person, the more likely they will come to the realisation that there is a Creator. Many of those whom you all consider to be intelligent are not really as intelligent as they think. To be considered intelligent in one field does not always translt to overall intelligence. You can't always measure intelligence with an SAT.

Secondly the Church has an embarrassing record of interference in scientific inquiry. The Church may interfere, but it cannot restrict what is in the Mind.

The problem is that the majority is not even aware of who or what God is. If you really knew who or what God is then you will find out that a lot of people actually believe in Him.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Mindonfire wrote:
Belief in God does not restrict your ability to think and imagine.

I heartily disagree. Thinking presupposes a rational process. Believing in a god involves faith, which is the suspension of reason. Faith and reason, IMO, cannot coexist. as soon as one suspends one's reason, anything goes.

That is not to say that humans are perfect, and that reasonable and rational people do not make mistakes. Often a person's knowledge is faulty, or incomplete. The problem is when a person relies on faith to provide the answers that he cannot access within his power of reasoning.

"Imagine"??? Anyone can imagine anything that they want, but that does not make their musings truth.

You are making the classical mistake of assuming that all faith is limited to one kind and is only obtained by fools. You see people tend to forget that that there are two ways to arrive at faith, or two kinds of faith. Without any further evidence, One can just believe because somebody tells them something Or One can believe after someone tells them something and they experience and see the evidence for themselves. Now an example of faith which an intelligent person has, would be likened to the type of faith which is based on experience and evidence. For example; A child of 10 has faith that when he becomes hungry, a parent will supply him with an adequate amount of food. This is because ever since his birth, whenever he became hungry, his parents were always there to give him food. So, over the years has become aware of this fact. And now when he is hungry, he believes or has faith that his parents will feed him. Through those years these parents have proven themselves to be reliable and trustworthy. And through that reliability and trustworthiness, they have cultivated and strengthened that child's faith in them. Therefore, if anyone approaches that child and tells him that his parents will not feed him today, he will not believe them. This is sue to all of the years of overwhelming evidence which tells him otherwise.

Now if one were to study the Bible they will see that this is the type of faith which it advocates. God does not want fools; therefore, he does not want anyone following blindly. He asks you to hear first; then, conduct an investigation and gather your own evidence from reality. Everything that God does or everything that the Bible speaks of is based on reality. Unfortunately in the world today, this is not what has been happening. Believers are dismissing evidence and following presumptions and assumptions. They have taken the Bible out of this reality and placed it into another. This is why you have people trying to walk on water even though this reality says that it can't be done. And this is why the world is in the mess that it is currently in.

Believing in God requires an awareness of reality.

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I say it with fewer words.

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Chai Tea wrote:

maybe I'm dense hep, but where does it specifically mention chistian as opposed to other faiths?

You are right Chai. Because of the teachings through-out the last 17 years that I've submitted to it was very easy to fall into the belief that they must have been talking about the "Creator" that christianity is suppose to promote. Though it does not specifically say it. However I still stand that it was founded on a belief in a "Creator" of some sort that has given us certain "unalienable rights" that were being violated therefore it became the job of the government to protect those rights, regardless of their personal status within a "religion". And I personally still believe that "Creator" is the God that christianity is suppose to promote.

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hephzibah wrote:

Chai Tea wrote:
maybe I'm dense hep, but where does it specifically mention chistian as opposed to other faiths?

You are right Chai. Because of the teachings through-out the last 17 years that I've submitted to it was very easy to fall into the belief that they must have been talking about the "Creator" that christianity is suppose to promote. Though it does not specifically say it. However I still stand that it was founded on a belief in a "Creator" of some sort that has given us certain "unalienable rights" that were being violated therefore it became the job of the government to protect those rights, regardless of their personal status within a "religion". And I personally still believe that "Creator" is the God that christianity is suppose to promote.

Well if they state that there is a Creator which gives you those rights, then it means that if there is no Creator then you don't have those rights.

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hephzibah wrote:

Chai Tea wrote:
maybe I'm dense hep, but where does it specifically mention chistian as opposed to other faiths?

You are right Chai. Because of the teachings through-out the last 17 years that I've submitted to it was very easy to fall into the belief that they must have been talking about the "Creator" that christianity is suppose to promote. Though it does not specifically say it. However I still stand that it was founded on a belief in a "Creator" of some sort that has given us certain "unalienable rights" that were being violated therefore it became the job of the government to protect those rights, regardless of their personal status within a "religion". And I personally still believe that "Creator" is the God that christianity is suppose to promote.

Well, don't take this personally (because I know you're not the only person who thinks like this), but that is quite a reach.

With logic like that, if you were to extended it just a couple more steps, a person could be saying only christians have these rights.

It says what it says, not what you read into it.

Someone clever enough could start at point A and end up with a statement that pink elephants run the NRA, or AMA for that matter.

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hephzibah wrote:

And I personally still believe that "Creator" is the God that christianity is suppose to promote.

The last time that we checked, The Creator created more than Christians.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

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Mindonfire wrote:

Actually the more intelligent the person, the more likely they will come to the realisation that there is a Creator. Many of those whom you all consider to be intelligent are not really as intelligent as they think. To be considered intelligent in one field does not always translt to overall intelligence. You can't always measure intelligence with an SAT.

Secondly the Church has an embarrassing record of interference in scientific inquiry. The Church may interfere, but it cannot restrict what is in the Mind.

The problem is that the majority is not even aware of who or what God is. If you really knew who or what God is then you will find out that a lot of people actually believe in Him.

And who is god?

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The United States was not founded as a Christian nation

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