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The United States was not founded as a Christian nation

 
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 09:05 am
Mindonfire wrote:
Now, explain to us the secrets of the number One? Can you explain to us how time moves?


Hmmm...tough questions. I'm going to say, "the opposite of whatever you think the answers are."

How is it living in Bizarro world, anyway?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 09:18 am
this is nothing to do with early toilet training is it?
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rockpie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 09:31 am
does anybody known where i can find a thread on the origin of consciousness? or has it not been done yet? can anybody explain it?
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 02:54 pm
hephzibah wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
hephzibah wrote:
Alright rosborne. The treaty signed specifically says:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

The government OF the nation, not the nation itself. So then please explain to me why it is they even mentioned any of the following if it was not of any importance to anyone:


Because it is important. It just doesn't say anything about Christianity. It just says "by their creator". Creator could easilty be deific, and it probably is.


So what is the primary "religion" in the US anyway rosborne?


I don't know.

Why, do you think it matters in some way other than statistically?
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 05:17 pm
For a moment I thought it did. It still may, but I have another question for you instead. You said:

"Because it is important. It just doesn't say anything about Christianity. It just says "by their creator". Creator could easilty be deific, and it probably is."

So why then if this "Creator" was deific would the government need to clarify that they (the government) were not founded on the christian religion?
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 08:51 pm
hephzibah wrote:
So why then if this "Creator" was deific would the government need to clarify that they (the government) were not founded on the christian religion?


I assume they were trying to clarify it (in the Tripoli Treaty) because someone had concenrs to the contrary. I would guess that the muslims had concerns about the foundation of the government they were considering doing business with.

Much like today, the christians were probably trying to lay claim to the foundation of the government, so it's not unreasonable for someone to clearly state the position and intention of the founders. George was there, and so was John. And as members of the original defining core, they make a strong case. As a matter of fact, they 'define' the case, and did so, clearly.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 09:17 pm
LOL Don't you see rosborne? Obviously christianity was pretty big back then too. Big enough for them to state clearly that the government was not founded in christianity. After all, wasn't "religious freedom" part of the deal here?
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 09:30 pm
hephzibah wrote:
LOL Don't you see rosborne? Obviously christianity was pretty big back then too. Big enough for them to state clearly that the government was not founded in christianity. After all, wasn't "religious freedom" part of the deal here?


It sounds like we agree.

Christianity was a force then, as it is now. But it was not the basis for the founding of this nation, or its government. Nor was any religion. The people who founded this nation, first and foremost recognized the value of separating church and state, and they made every effort to do so.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 09:37 pm
Well... I wouldn't go so far as to say we "agree" necessarily. Though I think we could be pretty darn close in some aspects. But millions of miles away in others. *shrugs*

Here's my thoughts:

No the american government was not founded on "christianity"

Obviously christianity was alive and kicking here in the US though.

Obviously there was a separation from Great Britain for "religious" reasons.

So I'm willing to state at this point that since christianity seemed to have had enough influence at the time that they basically had to make a statement denying that the government was founded on it so it seems pretty safe to say that chances are christianity was the primary religion at the time. They didn't deny being founded on any other religion did they?

I also think it might be a good idea to take a look at the reason they denied being founded on "christianity" don't you?
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 10:09 pm
hephzibah wrote:
So I'm willing to state at this point that since christianity seemed to have had enough influence at the time that they basically had to make a statement denying that the government was founded on it so it seems pretty safe to say that chances are christianity was the primary religion at the time. They didn't deny being founded on any other religion did they?


If the christians were running around claiming that the nation was theirs, then I'm not surprised foreign governments got the wrong idea, and our government felt compelled to make a strong statement.

Apparently the deists had better things to do with their time than trying to claim dominance of a non-religious government.

hephzibah wrote:
I also think it might be a good idea to take a look at the reason they denied being founded on "christianity" don't you?


If someone accused me of being christian, I would deny it too. You seen to think this line of reasoning is important, maybe you can just tell us why you think they denied being founded on christianity.
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echi
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 10:13 pm
[bookmark]
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 10:26 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
hephzibah wrote:
So I'm willing to state at this point that since christianity seemed to have had enough influence at the time that they basically had to make a statement denying that the government was founded on it so it seems pretty safe to say that chances are christianity was the primary religion at the time. They didn't deny being founded on any other religion did they?


If the christians were running around claiming that the nation was theirs, then I'm not surprised foreign governments got the wrong idea, and our government felt compelled to make a strong statement.

Apparently the deists had better things to do with their time than trying to claim dominance of a non-religious government.

hephzibah wrote:
I also think it might be a good idea to take a look at the reason they denied being founded on "christianity" don't you?


If someone accused me of being christian, I would deny it too. You seen to think this line of reasoning is important, maybe you can just tell us why you think they denied being founded on christianity.


I shouldn't have to if you read the treaty should I? It's not what I think (meaning having a preconceived idea of how I want this to be or what I want this to mean) so much as what I'm reading here:

Quote:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


Sounds to me like someone was accusing them of trying to start a religious war in the name of "christianity", therefore the declaration here is that their foundation was not based on christianity nor their actions. They weren't rejecting "christianity" necessarily, so much as the idea that it was influencing them to make certain decisions that could interrupt the harmony.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Oct, 2006 11:02 pm
kiwimac wrote:
A goodly number of the US 'founding fathers' were indeed Deists but of the sort that today are often called "Biblical Deists" to distinguish them from Deists of other kinds......


hi Kiwimac,

Not at all sure what you are talking about.

Who are 'often called' Biblical Deists?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Biblical+Deist%22&btnG=Google+Search

VERY few of the Founding Fathers seem to have been Deists.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 02:50 am
real life wrote:
VERY few of the Founding Fathers seem to have been Deists.


Quote:
One of the most common statements from the "Religious Right" is that they want this country to "return to the Christian principles on which it was founded". However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.


from

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 08:38 am
hephzibah wrote:
Quote:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


Sounds to me like someone was accusing them of trying to start a religious war in the name of "christianity", therefore the declaration here is that their foundation was not based on christianity nor their actions. They weren't rejecting "christianity" necessarily, so much as the idea that it was influencing them to make certain decisions that could interrupt the harmony.


A Treaty is a formal agreement between two or more states in reference to peace, alliance, commerce, or other international relations. I'm not sure what they were 'treating' over, but it might have been over commerce and not war.

I'm guessing that the muslims just wanted to know who they were dealing with (not having had a pleasant experience with the Christians before), and George Washington and John Adams told them, "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". I'm just taking them at their word.

I guess we just disagree on the interpretation.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 08:48 am
Yeah I think we do because they didn't stop with that statement rosborne. They said a whole lot more and I think the other things they said are just as important as the initial statement.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 08:54 am
rosborne979 wrote:
hephzibah wrote:
Quote:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


Sounds to me like someone was accusing them of trying to start a religious war in the name of "christianity", therefore the declaration here is that their foundation was not based on christianity nor their actions. They weren't rejecting "christianity" necessarily, so much as the idea that it was influencing them to make certain decisions that could interrupt the harmony.


A Treaty is a formal agreement between two or more states in reference to peace, alliance, commerce, or other international relations. I'm not sure what they were 'treating' over, but it might have been over commerce and not war.

I'm guessing that the muslims just wanted to know who they were dealing with (not having had a pleasant experience with the Christians before), and George Washington and John Adams told them, "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". I'm just taking them at their word.

I guess we just disagree on the interpretation.


Muslim petty rulers on the north African coast had long supported their extravagent tastes by practicing piracy and selling captives into slavery. Because the French maintained a substantial navy with its principle base at Toulon on the Mediterranean coast, and the English Royal Navy heavily patrolled the Mediterranean, these jokers had learned that it did not pay to attack the shipping of those two nations.

But attacking the American shipping seemed profitable and unlikely to bring an unpleasant reaction. Both Washington and Adams negotiated and paid tribute to these petty rulers, collectively known as the Barbary Pirates (the north African coast was then usually referred to as the Barbary coast, probably from Berber, which is what the tribesmen of northern Africa were called). But both Washington and Adams also urged Congress (successfully) to raise the funds to build a modern navy. The United States could not afford the large line of battle ships such as the English and French used, but they could and did build frigates, a class of ship smaller, but also faster and just as dangerous. The American frigates were built on a massive scale, so much so that during the War of 1812 (known to the English as the American War), the Americans were accused of using "razees," which is to say, cut-down line of battle ships. Ironically, it was under Jefferson--no friend to the Navy--that a flotilla was sent to Tripoli (the largest pirate den on that coast) to blockade the pirates. Philadelphia was captured after it ran aground, so the early American naval hero Stephen Decatur took a captured pirate zebec, dressed his men as the Barbary pirates were wont to do, and sailed into the middle of the harbor, retook Philadelphia and set fire to it, so as to deny it to the enemy. No less a naval luminary than Horatio Nelson described it as the greatest heroic act of the age.

An overland expedition of Marines was also sent against the Barbary Pirates (hence, the line "shores of Tripoli" in the Marine Corps Hymn), and finally, in 1804, the Bey of Tripoli surrendered, and accepted terms. Nevertheless, the pirates went back to their bad old ways, and Jefferson, who opposed maintaining a large navy, paid them tribute once again.

I cannot find a source to support the claim, but i believe the language used in the treaty was intended to prevent the Muslims of the north African coast from characterizing the Barbary Wars (the United States fought two Barbary wars) as holy wars, which authorized selling prisoners into slavery, and all manner of murder and cruelty. The point of such a passage would be to underline the intent of the United States to end the piracy, and not to conquer or convert the Berbers of northern Africa.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 09:00 am
wow... that's awesome setanta.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 09:05 am
Let's hear it for them Mussulmen.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 11:32 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
real life wrote:
VERY few of the Founding Fathers seem to have been Deists.


Quote:
......The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States ......were Deists......


from

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html


How 'bout documenting your assertion with something other than more assertions ?

Helpful Hint A: Useful quotations would be those by Founding Fathers that deny their belief in prayer, for instance, since that would be God intervening in the affairs of men. A Deist would probably NOT believe in a God who answers prayer.

Helpful Hint B: Also helpful would be quotations by Founding Fathers that deny their belief in the Bible since that would be God intervening to reveal Himself to man and show to man His character, teach His ways, etc. A strict Deist would probably NOT believe in God intervening in this fashion, either.

Helpful Hint C: Very helpful would be quotations by Founding Fathers that deny that Jesus Christ was in ANY fashion a message, a messenger , an example or representative of God in ANY way. Good Deists would NOT be very consistent if they believed in God intervening in human history in this fashion (think: Star Trek and violating the Prime Directive)

Since Jesus Christ's life has arguably substantially altered human history (some believe for the good, others not) then if God intervened to "send" Jesus in any way, this would really put His credentials as the "hands off watchmaker" at risk.

Well, how 'bout it? Please quote in the words of the Founding Fathers only, not in the interpretive biographical sketches that others have written to redefine them.

Let THEM say that THEY hold to Deistic beliefs.

Ready. Go.
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