The United States was not founded as a Christian nation

Yeah I think we do because they didn't stop with that statement rosborne. They said a whole lot more and I think the other things they said are just as important as the initial statement.

I cannot find a source to support the claim, but i believe the language used in the treaty was intended to prevent the Muslims of the north African coast from characterizing the Barbary Wars (the United States fought two Barbary wars) as holy wars, which authorized selling prisoners into slavery, and all manner of murder and cruelty. The point of such a passage would be to underline the intent of the United States to end the piracy, and not to conquer or convert the Berbers of northern Africa.

RL, Steve's link provided many quotes from the major founders. For a starter, here are a couple from Franklin.

Benjamin Franklin
". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
- "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", 1728

If you'll study Franklin throughout his life, you may find that this statement early in his life (when he was 22, over four decades prior to the time he played a role in the founding of the nation ), and statements later in his life reflect profound differences.

This is also the case with other Founding fathers as well.

Let THEM say that THEY hold to Deistic beliefs.

Ready. Go.

At the age of eighty-four, just previous to his death, in reply to inquiries concerning his religious belief from Ezra Stiles, the President of Yale College, he wrote as follows:

"Here is my creed: I believe in one God, the Creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable service we render him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this."

This is pure Deism. Paine[/u] and Voltaire[/u] would have readily subscribed to every one of the above six articles of faith. Compare the creed of Franklin with the creed of Paine.

How 'bout documenting your assertion with something other than more assertions ?

Helpful Hint A: Useful quotations would be those by Founding Fathers that deny their belief in prayer, for instance, since that would be God intervening in the affairs of men. A Deist would probably NOT believe in a God who answers prayer.

Helpful Hint B: Also helpful would be quotations by Founding Fathers that deny their belief in the Bible since that would be God intervening to reveal Himself to man and show to man His character, teach His ways, etc. A strict Deist would probably NOT believe in God intervening in this fashion, either.

Helpful Hint C: Very helpful would be quotations by Founding Fathers that deny that Jesus Christ was in ANY fashion a message, a messenger , an example or representative of God in ANY way. Good Deists would NOT be very consistent if they believed in God intervening in human history in this fashion (think: Star Trek and violating the Prime Directive)

Since Jesus Christ's life has arguably substantially altered human history (some believe for the good, others not) then if God intervened to "send" Jesus in any way, this would really put His credentials as the "hands off watchmaker" at risk.

Well, how 'bout it? Please quote in the words of the Founding Fathers only, not in the interpretive biographical sketches that others have written to redefine them.

Let THEM say that THEY hold to Deistic beliefs.

Ready. Go.

George Washington, a vestryman in the Truro parish of the Episcopal Church in Virginia, was also a Mason, and wore Masonic regalia to lay the cornerstone of the Capitol.

This is also the case with other Founding fathers as well.

If you want to sneer at Steve for what you describe as his assertions, you leave yourself open to the same ridicule for horseshit such as is quoted here.

I'm of the opinion that he's not even flinging his own bullshit--but rather, that he runs off to find it at some bible-thumper site online which provides the fundamentalist playground bullies the material they use.

real life wrote:

If you'll study Franklin throughout his life, you may find that this statement early in his life (when he was 22, over four decades prior to the time he played a role in the founding of the nation ), and statements later in his life reflect profound differences.

This is also the case with other Founding fathers as well.

Well let's see here. First you issue a challenge.

real life wrote:

Let THEM say that THEY hold to Deistic beliefs.

Ready. Go.

Then when it is met you say that he was too young at the time. OK How about age 84? From Steve's link above.

Quote:

At the age of eighty-four, just previous to his death, in reply to inquiries concerning his religious belief from Ezra Stiles, the President of Yale College, he wrote as follows:

"Here is my creed: I believe in one God, the Creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable service we render him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this."

This is pure Deism. Paine[/u] and Voltaire[/u] would have readily subscribed to every one of the above six articles of faith. Compare the creed of Franklin with the creed of Paine.

How about taking your own challenge. Let THEM say that THEY hold to Christian beliefs.

Ready. Go.

Benjamin Franklin: Constitutional Convention Address on Prayer[/b]

Mr. President:

The small progress we have made after 4 or five weeks close attendance & continual reasonings with each other -- our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ays, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own wont of political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We have gone back to ancient history for models of government, and examined the different forms of those Republics which having been formed with the seeds of their own dissolution now no longer exist. And we have viewed Modern States all round Europe, but find none of their Constitutions suitable to our circumstances.

In this situation of this Assembly groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance.

I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.

Doesnt sound much like a Deist to me.

Quote:

Benjamin Franklin: Constitutional Convention Address on Prayer[/b]

Alright rosborne. The treaty signed specifically says:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

The government OF the nation, not the nation itself. So then please explain to me why it is they even mentioned any of the following if it was not of any importance to anyone:

"...that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rightssecure these rights, Governments are instituted among Menbecomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Romans 13:1
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

1 Peter 2:13-14
Submission to Rulers and Masters
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

The Founding Fathers had to justify rebelling against a King whose authority, according to the Bible, had been established by God himself.