Advantage....Steve.
(Could be the Robinson's Barley Water which muslim1 has to forgo during Ramadan
)
fresco wrote:Advantage....Steve.
(Could be the Robinson's Barley Water which muslim1 has to forgo during Ramadan
)
You know Fresco I really wish this was just a game of tennis. Its all trivial to me. But for some its a matter of life and death. Meanwhile back to the war of words
...Nearly a thousand years after the rout of the invading muslim forces near Tours, they were trying again, this time at Vienna. Unfortunately for the Muslims, God was again on the Christian side and the invaders slunk off back to Turkey where the Ottoman Empire continued to decline.
Quote:The Ottomans decided to lay siege to Vienna and settled in a luxurious tent camp outside the city walls. In September 1683, the Polish military leader John Sobieski arrived with 60,000 Christian fighters. Just before going into battle, he spoke to his men:
"It is not a city alone that we have to save, but the whole of Christianity, of which the city of Vienna is the bulwark. This war is a holy one."
Sobieski and his cavalry charged the Ottoman camp, and the Muslim soldiers fled. The Ottomans' dream of taking Europe collapsed in a rout before the gates of Vienna.
Steve,
As I said before, I think muslim1 is on a self-valedictory brownie point trip. The repetition of Koranic "word magic" as with any other "holy text" is the equivalent of sticking fingers in the ears and humming.... fairly easy prey for an ace !
Does Dawkins give his views about legislation about "respect for faith" in that book ? He was just interviewed on Radio 2 and said it was ridiculous that religious beliefs should be immune from criticism when political beliefs are not. I think this is where the forces of reason need to mustered.
fresco wrote:Steve,
As I said before, I think muslim1 is on a self-valedictory brownie point trip. The repetition of Koranic "word magic" as with any other "holy text" is the equivalent of sticking fingers in the ears and humming.... fairly easy prey for an ace !
Does Dawkins give his views about legislation about "respect for faith" in that book ? He was just interviewed on Radio 2 and said it was ridiculous that religious beliefs should be immune from criticism when political beliefs are not. I think this is where the forces of reason need to mustered.
Well I've not finished the book yet
and it gets a bit heavy in places!
But he talks about the false idea of NOMA (non overlapping magisteria) whereby science is prevented from stepping onto the ground of theology whereas theologians dabble with scientific ideas all the time. He goes on about cultural genes...meme and replicators going wrong explaining a lot of religion..
gotta go more later. S
Dawkins does a good job in pointing out the logical absurdities in arguments for the existence of God. He points out that we have left aside hundreds if not thousands of gods over the millennia Thoth Thor Aman Ra etc. He just goes one god more. He points out that if life is complex, then a designer must logically be more complex which begs the obvious question who designed the designer. Dawkins shows clearly how apparant design is manifested after millions if not billions of years of genes pushing for reproduction and natural selection doing its work. Where it gets a bit heavy for me is where he starts to describe how mans natural pre programming makes him susceptible to replicators - memes - and how religion could be a by product of the child's survival needs to believe and obey.
Dawkins is pissed off by being told that he cannot comment on religion. He is fairly contemptuous of theologians in any case with their sloppy logic and their make it up as they go along beliefs.
He also feels that atheists need to stand up and be counted...'come out' if you will similar to the assertiveness of the gay rights movement. If they did this (and many are afraid to especially in the US) they would find tremendous weight and firepower on their side against the religionists.
There are also flashes of tremendous humour. Dawkins clearly isnt the dry intellectual as he sometimes comes across.
I'm not sure I will be calling myself an atheist at the end of the book...maybe it'll take more than one reading. :wink:
I don't believe there is a God either.
Maybe I'll have my throat cut by somebody who believes there is, and that'll show me, won't it?
Forgot to comment on Frescos point about religious commentary and the law.
Dawkins demands absolutely the right to challenge religious belief. And religion should not be ring fenced by protective laws against upset.
He might go on further about this...as I said yet to finish the book.
BUT in my view I think it is right and timely to make a concerted attack on the bad ideas that constitute too much of "protected" religion.
I cant get out of my mind the London bombings last year. They were English lads, liked football cricket fish and chips....They had nothing whatsoever to do with Afghanistan or Iraq...no relations no connection at all. What other explanation except that they thought they were doing gods will and would be rewarded in heaven drove them to kill themselves and 56 other people?
The time is passed to be over sensitive of other peoples religious belief. I'm not calling for gratuitous insult of course not, but if some is suffering from a delusion such that he is a positive danger, its time to expose the reality of that delusion. In this respect I am rather pleased with my own little contribution
its time to fight FIRE with FIRE
Fundamentalist Irrational Religious Extremism with Factual Intelligible Rational Explanation.
[Actually dawkins said psychiatrists didnt want him to use the title The God Delusion, because delusion has a precise technical term...his friend suggested "relusion" but Dawkins refers to the dictionary definition of delusion as conveying his exact meaning]
...
There is something that created this universe... some kinda force..or power... isn't that what god really is??
anyways about Islam and all that chaos in islamic countries... basically Islam clearly doesn't allow that kinda stupidity it's just the mindless muslims f...cin their asses off! Arabs got oil...woo hoo big deal!!! so they loose all their knowledge for the luxorious life.
all this religious stuff is just a wierd propoganda.
anyways when we say he's texan... in the big pic we're saying he's american.
when we say he's from new york... inthe big pic we're sayin he's American.
so when we say he's muslim, christian, jewish, hindu or what ever...basically aren't we just saying he's a creation of that Great and Powerful Force?
ps someone mind telling me the purpose of this discussion anyways?
20th of Ramadan: the conquest of Makkah
On Ramadan 20, 8 AH (630 AD), Muslims victoriously entered Makkah (Mecca) after being forced into exile for eight years and after 21 years of a long struggle. This event marked the greatest victory of the Islamic forces in Arabia and the beginning of a new era in the history of mankind. The glorious conquest of the holy city came after the pagans broke the peace treaty with Muslims.
Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him), the last and final Messenger of God, lead the Muslim Army to Makkah. The city was conquered without a battle. The pagans surrendered to the Islamic forces.
Being a Prophet of absolute mercy, one who came to secure the happiness of mankind both in this world and the next, God's Messenger, (Peace and blessings be upon him), entered Makkah, bowing on the back of his mule, as a victorious conqueror. He displayed no hint of self-pride nor thought of either vengeance or retaliation.
He proceeded toward the Ka'ba (building located inside the mosque known as Masjid al Haram ) in utmost modesty and absolute gratitude to God, who had made him victorious in his sacred mission.
He stopped at the Ka'ba This day no reproach shall be on you. God will forgive you; He is the Most Merciful of the Merciful. You can go, you are free !
This marked the end of polytheism in Makkah. While the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) was toppling down the idols at the Ka'ba one after the other, he recited:
And, almost all of the Makkans, who had been the enemies of Islam until one day before, acquired the honor of becoming Muslims and Companions to God's Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings.
Makkah is today the heart of the Islamic world, the holiest city in Islam. It is the dream of every Muslim to visit this sacred land.
truth eh? so no place for fairy stories like Islam? Its complete rubbish Muslim1. I thought you an intelligent person, maybe you are, but brainwashed with this religious crap.
You would not know truth if it slapped you in the face. Because evidence is constantly slapping you in the face and you persist with your delusions.
Dangerous delusions at that. And yes the rest of the 1.3 billion Muslims ARE deluded.
Laylat Al Qadr (the Night of Power/Fate): A blessed night.
The most important night of the Holy month of Ramadan is called Laylat Al Qadr (means: the Night of Power/Fate).
This is a night of great blessings. It is better than a thousand months. The people of the past had very long lives compared to the much shorter lives of the Ummah (Islamic Nation). If this Ummah then wished to compete with them in doing of the good deeds, it would mean that because of the shorter lives it would be impossible for this Ummah to either emulate or surpass them. For this reason, Allah in His Infinite Mercy granted this Ummah, this night of great blessing. This night has great virtues:.
1. The Holy Qur'an was revealed in this night.
2. The reward of worship in this night is better than the reward of 1000 months.
3. On this night, Jibra'eel (Gabriel) descends to the earth with a group of angels, reciting peace and praying for the blessings for those they see in Worship and Praises Allah.
4. This is a night of peace. The blessings and mercy descends right until the break of day.
The Creator of AB2K members says:
"We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power:
And what will explain to thee what the night of power is?
The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.
Therein come down the angels and the Spirit (Gabriel) by Allah's permission, on every errand:
Peace!...This until the rise of morn! "
[Holy Qur'an Chapter 97]
muslim1 wrote: The people of the past had very long lives compared to the much shorter lives of the Ummah (Islamic Nation).
Are you saying life expectancy has declined for the Muslims over 1400 years of Islam?
Uh, that's exactly what he did say.
Steve 41oo wrote:Are you saying life expectancy has declined for the Muslims over 1400 years of Islam?
No. I compared life expectancy in modern times with the long lives in very ancient times. For example: Prophets Adam and Noah (Peace be upon them) lived approximately 1000 years, while people of today (Muslims and non-Muslims alike) rarely exceed 90.
muslim1 wrote:Steve 41oo wrote:Are you saying life expectancy has declined for the Muslims over 1400 years of Islam?
No. I compared life expectancy in modern times with the long lives in very ancient times. For example: Prophets Adam and Noah (Peace be upon them) lived approximately 1000 years, while people of today (Muslims and non-Muslims alike) rarely exceed 90.
Well as the original bloke Adam and the guy with the boat never existed at all, I suppose you can have them live any length of time. Why not 10,000 years, or 100 million? Muslim1 you are clearly not stupid, but please dont tell me you actually believe that Adam and Noah lived nearly 1000 years. Or is this just another example of faith transcending reason?
Steve 41oo wrote:There are also flashes of tremendous humour. Dawkins clearly isnt the dry intellectual as he sometimes comes across.
Steve, here is a link to a video interview with Dawkins on Comedy Central.
http://www.venganza.org/2006/10/18/you-cant-disprove.htm
thanks but no sound card
will have to imagine happy atheistic chuckling !
Steve,
You are missing nothing with that video. Dawkins gets to publicise his book in return for being the stooge for the presenter's "mouth show". If anything, Dawkins comes off the worse dignity-wise.
Steve 41oo wrote:muslim1 wrote:Steve 41oo wrote:Are you saying life expectancy has declined for the Muslims over 1400 years of Islam?
No. I compared life expectancy in modern times with the long lives in very ancient times. For example: Prophets Adam and Noah (Peace be upon them) lived approximately 1000 years, while people of today (Muslims and non-Muslims alike) rarely exceed 90.
Well as the original bloke Adam and the guy with the boat never existed at all, I suppose you can have them live any length of time. Why not 10,000 years, or 100 million? Muslim1 you are clearly not stupid, but please dont tell me you actually believe that Adam and Noah lived nearly 1000 years. Or is this just another example of faith transcending reason?
So if science or mankind doesn't find proof, it means it doesn't exist? I really like your reasoning, I assume mankind is infallible. What happened to putting your faith in your Creator, clearly he knows everything and only reveals what is true.
Eid-Ul-Fitr and Zakat-Ul-Fitr
By Prof. Ziauddin Ahmad
Eid-ul-Fitr is a day of thanksgiving and jubilation as it signifies the successful completion of the sacred month of Ramadan.
This festival marks the completion of an act of duty and devotion. It teaches us the lesson that real happiness arises from performing one's duty and making sacrifices for a noble objective.
Fasting is one of the most significant pillars of Islam. The practice of fasting sublimates the inner self of man and inculcates discernment of the pangs and hardships which the poor and needy face. This feeling is awakened in all those, whether rich or poor, young or old, who observe fasting. It is the loftiest achievement of moral exercises which is celebrated with the greatest zest and verve on the day of Eid-ul-Fitr.
All kinds of spiritual adorations during the sacred month of Ramadan are in celebration of the revelation of the last and perfect message of Allah to humanity, for the limitless and vast favor on mankind in the shape of the Glorious Qur'an and its implication in the dedication and devotion in the month of Ramadan to which the Divine Book had led. God says: "Allah has revealed to you the Book and Wisdom and taught you what you did not know before. Allah's goodness to you has been great indeed." [Glorious Qur'an 4:113]
There are multiple results of fasting (Siyam) in the shape of vigorous duties, moral and spiritual self-discipline and austerity. This reward equips man to swim in the roughest seas of life. It is in this concept that the Qur'an has clearly expressed the act of fasting as a blessing and not a calamity. Allah desires your well being, not your discomfort. He desires you to fast the whole of the month so that you may magnify Him for giving you His guidance, and that you may give thanks.
It is with this spirit of thanksgiving that Eid-ul-Fitr is observed all over the world by Muslim Ummah (Nation) by offering prayers to Allah, and rejoicing and festivity on the accomplishment of an act of dedication and submission to the Almighty. The Muslim Ummah meditates and pays obeisance to their Lord in congregation, displaying the real spirit of brotherhood, equality and fraternity through the prayers and through the zest of meeting and embracing the Muslim brothers.
On this happy occasion of Eid-ul-Fitr, we should pray to Allah to bless the Muslim Ummah.
We should not forget those who are afflicted with poverty, ignorance, disease and other misfortunes. Charity i.e. the Zakat-ul-Fitr is obligatory at the end of the fasting month i.e. Ramadan and should be compulsorily paid to the needy by every Muslim of means. The real happiness of Eid lies in sharing our happiness with others. Payment of fitrah to the poor and needy is obligatory. It has to be paid before Eid prayers.
May Allah Almighty accept our deeds, Amen.
