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What The World Thinks of America (BBC program)

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 03:44 pm
Actually agree with almost all of georgeob1's foreign policy reprimands re: the Clinton era.

In the meantime, contradictory results in a random Dutch opinion poll this week:

Quote:
If you look at everything now, do you support the decision of the US, at the time, to start a war against Iraq?

Yes 33%
No 60%

Do you think most Iraqis are better off currently with the new situation in Iraq than a year ago when Saddam Hussein was still the boss?

Better now 57%
Better with Saddam Hussein 12%

[Now you can conclude that those polled either dont think bettering the lot of the Iraqis was worth a war, or that the benefit in terms of bettering their fate has been offset by downsides on other points.]

[..] Do you think the Dutch soldiers should be called back?

Yes 33%
No 60%

[So the war was a bad idea, but now that we're there, we should stay].

Do you hope President Bush will be reelected in November 2004?

Yes 5%
No 86%

[<falls off chair>]
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 04:45 pm
Nimh,

They weren't reprimands, but I'm glad you agree.

Happily Dutch voters are not represented in our elections.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2003 06:10 pm
An article Walter linked in at the UN/US/Iraq thread summarizes some of the vox populi in Britain - from left and right:

Quote:
[..] Many here agree with that view. Many of my own acquaintances feel no animosity at all towards Americans. They like them. It’s the President and his foreign policy, stupid.

Max Hastings, former editor of the right-wing Daily Telegraph, writing in another equally right-wing paper this week, [..] speaks warmly of the U.S. - it remains the most "astonishing social and economic engine the world has ever seen."

Yet he adds: "This is a hard time to love America. The phrase ‘special relationship’ has never seemed more absurd. George Bush does not do special relationships with foreigners [..] Bush seems to represent everything about his country from which we shrink."

Bill Bryson says: "I don’t think people here are anti-American. Just anti what’s going on. People are still warm and friendly, still want to go to Disneyland and watch American TV programs. They just don’t want us to go bombing everybody."
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2003 06:19 pm
How often a simple expression can be eloquent of people's feelings . . .

Bill Bryson said:

Quote:
"I don't think people here are anti-American. Just anti what's going on . . . They just don't want us to go bombing everybody."


I remain mystified why otherwise reasonably intelligent people do not see that much of the world's population are simply alarmed that we now have, at least as perceived, a "shoot now and ask questions later" style of foreign policy.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 12:04 pm
Setanta wrote:
I remain mystified why otherwise reasonably intelligent people do not see that much of the world's population are simply alarmed that we now have, at least as perceived, a "shoot now and ask questions later" style of foreign policy.

I don't fail to see that; I do see it. I just know that their perception is not accurate. Perhaps we could do a better job of educating them as to why it is not accurate, but I for one don't think we can simply forego doing that which we see as being in the best interests of Americans because some people around the world don't like it. Of course we have to take that sentiment into account, and I believe we are, but not to the extent that we tie our hands over the wringing of others'.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 12:15 pm
Scrat wrote:
I just know that their perception is not accurate. Perhaps we could do a better job of educating them as to why it is not accurate, but I for one don't think we can simply forego doing that which we see as being in the best interests of Americans because some people around the world don't like it.

1) It's not some people around the world. It's most people around the world, judging by the UN plenum votes on Iraq.

2) The goodwill of the rest of the world is at least as much "in the best interests of Americans" as your military power is. Goodwill keeps moderate muslims from supporting terrorists, and it encourages European and Asian cooperation with America's. Unfortunately, goodwill requires some signal of respect for the rest of the world. I haven't seen many such signals from the Bush administration, so I doubt that Bush has, in total, served the best interest of America.

3) "Shoot first, ask questions later" seems like an accurate description for what was going on in Iraq. Therefore I'm unconvinced by your "I know their perception is not accurate".

[edited to correct my misquoting Scrat]
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 01:24 pm
America has been the subject of fairly constant criticism and even popular resentment among our allies since the end of WWII. Certainly it reached relative high points during Vietnam, the Reagan years, and now. However to some degree it has always been there. Certainly the opposite condition, that of basking in the profuse esteem and agreement of our allies, has occurred only briefly and in the most exceptional of circumstances. Indeed there was a good deal of bickering among the allies during WWII. The largest and strongest dog in the pack cannot expect to be loved by the others.

This is not to say that we should not be very careful about failing to consult with or accommodate the views of our allies. That should be saved only for particularly important issues over which no agreement can be obtained. At such a point we must consider the lesser of two evils. Certainly the Republicans will claim that this is such a situation. That point is certainly debatable, but I am inclined to believe it is true.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 02:17 pm
Thomas wrote:
Scrat wrote:
I just know that their perception is not accurate. Perhaps we could do a better job of educating them as to why it is not accurate, but I for one don't think we can simply forego doing that which we see as being in the best interests of Americans because some people around the world don't like it.

1) It's not some people around the world. It's most people around the world, judging by the UN plenum votes on Iraq.

This is your opinion. And BTW, the word "some" applies when "most" applies. The words are not mutually exclusive. And the majority of the UN voting X doesn't mean the majority of people think X. The majority of people polled in many European countries support the death penalty while their governments do not.

Quote:
2) The goodwill of the rest of the world is at least as much "in the best interests of Americans" as your military power is. Goodwill keeps moderate muslims from supporting terrorists, and it encourages European and Asian cooperation with America's. Unfortunately, goodwill requires some signal of respect for the rest of the world. I haven't seen many such signals from the Bush administration, so I doubt that Bush has, in total, served the best interest of America.

Goodwill doesn't prevent terrorism. Raising the opportunity cost of terrorism will.

Quote:
3) "Shoot first, ask questions later" seems like an accurate description for what was going on in Iraq. Therefore I'm unconvinced by your "I know their perception is not accurate".

"Seems" is not the same thing as "is". Your opinion on this is well known, and doesn't make it so. Saddam shot first, then failed to live up to the agreement by which we stopped kicking his ass 13 years ago. (Forget that point?) We didn't "start" anything, nor did we "shoot first". We gave him far too many chances to avoid renewed conflict and he refused to take those chances. 8 years of Clinton convinced him that we would blink, and to his peril.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 02:19 pm
Quote:
The majority of people polled in many European countries support the death penalty while their governments do not.


Scrat

If you just could name one single country for that poll?
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 02:42 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Quote:
The majority of people polled in many European countries support the death penalty while their governments do not.


Scrat

If you just could name one single country for that poll?

What I can do (with a quick search) is cite an anti-death penalty source that makes the same claim I have made:

Quote:
America's Deadly Image

By FELIX G. ROHATYN*
OP-ED

A subject that is rarely noted today is the challenge to America's moral leadership in Europe. Most Frenchmen, as most Europeans, admire America. They admire what we do, what we stand for and what we have done for them twice in the 20th century. I have had the privilege of speaking on D-Day at the Normandy military cemeteries and seeing tens of thousands of Frenchmen paying their respects to the fallen GIs. France considers itself, together with the United States, as the source of human rights and modern democracy.

It is important for the United States to maintain this image in the eyes of Europeans, and to protect the legitimacy of our moral leadership. This moral leadership is under challenge because of two issues: the death penalty and violence in our society. During my nearly four years in France, no single issue evoked as much passion and as much protest as executions in the United States. Repeated protests in front of the embassy in Paris, protests at our consulates and, just recently, a petition signed by 500,000 French men and women delivered to our embassy in Paris were part of a constant refrain. My colleague in Germany, Ambassador John Kornblum, had indicated to me that he was challenged as frequently in Germany on this issue as I was in France.

In France, the death penalty was outlawed in 1981, even though it was still favored by a majority. The European Union outlaws the death penalty. There is a strong belief among our European allies that it has no place in a civilized society. more...
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 02:48 pm
And here's some more:

Quote:
Differences in the way survey questions are framed complicate direct comparisons with Europe. (European polls sometimes pose the question in terms of the death penalty for terrorism, for genocide, for depraved sexual crimes, and so forth.) But, even if you ask the death-penalty question in the more restricted sense that Americans generally understand it--"Do you support the death penalty for aggravated murder?"--you find very few European countries where the public clearly opposes it, and there are a number where support is very strong. In Britain, the world headquarters of Amnesty International, opinion polls have shown that between 2/3 and 3/4 of the population favors the death penalty--about the same as in the United States. In Italy, which has led the international fight against capital punishment for much of the last decade, roughly half the population wants it reinstated. In France, clear majorities continued to back the death penalty long after it was abolished in 1981; only last year did a poll finally show that less than 50% wanted it restored. There is barely a country in Europe where the death penalty was abolished in response to public opinion rather than in spite of it. more...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 02:56 pm
Thanks, Scrat, for quoting Rick Halperin's opinion from Monday, Jul 31, 2000!
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 03:16 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Thanks, Scrat, for quoting Rick Halperin's opinion from Monday, Jul 31, 2000!

Yeah, that's all I did. Rolling Eyes I hope you'll understand if I don't bother responding to you in the future. Seems pointless if you're not going to acknowledge what I write. Confused
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 03:47 pm
Scrat wrote:
Goodwill doesn't prevent terrorism. Raising the opportunity cost of terrorism will.

So does reducing the utility of terrorism to the terrorists and their supporters. Arguably, the most important way in which terrorism benefits these people is by creating the warm fuzzy feeling of fighting for a just cause, and against an oppressive power that wants to push around the rest of the world. Goodwill towards America does prevent terrorism by reducing the number of people who hold this opinion and thereby prevents terrorism. Contrast this George Bush's Rambo politics. I admit it raises opportunity costs, but also increases the honor and status terrorists can earn by blowing up Americans. Whether this is on net a good thing is something we'll find out, but my prediction is that it's not.

Scrat wrote:
Saddam shot first, then failed to live up to the agreement by which we stopped kicking his ass 13 years ago.

Who shot first obviously depends on the point in time at which you let your story begin, which is everybody's choice. As best I remember, Bush's justification in the runup of the war was that there was a link between Saddam and Al Queda. Ooops, no evidence for that. Okay, then it's because some Africans are selling Uranium to Iraq. Ooops they don't. Okay, but Saddam still has leftover weapons of mass destruction. We claim these pose an immediate threat to our national security, and bypass UN procedures to attack as soon as possible. So in justifying the war, the administration referred to events they said happened in the recent past, which suggest that the relevant time frame for the story starts in the recent past too, not in 1991. But again, that's everybody's choice.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 04:18 pm
Scrat wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Thanks, Scrat, for quoting Rick Halperin's opinion from Monday, Jul 31, 2000!

Yeah, that's all I did. Rolling Eyes I hope you'll understand if I don't bother responding to you in the future. Seems pointless if you're not going to acknowledge what I write. Confused


I have drunken deep of joy,
And I will taste no other wine to-night. (Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Cenci)
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 05:48 pm
Thomas,

It would be difficult to defend the Administration's skill in communicating, through an often skeptical media establishment, its strategic purpose and intent in the intervention in Iraq. The fact is that early on the Administration did rather fully explain its strategic objectives, however, not in particularly compelling or colorful terms. After that they carelessly allowed their tactics for getting allied support for the strategy to alter the terms of the debate and obscure the key elements of the strategy.

For example, in appealing to the UN, the only available basis for action in that rather legalistic and skeptical body was the degree to which Saddam had or failed to comply with numerous Security Council resolutions. That he had failed to comply was rather obvious, however, it was clear that for various reasons the other members of the Security Council were unwilling to act to enforce their earlier resolutions. (and as the UN has failed to act in so many other compelling situations) Indeed before 2001 it was clear that France and Russia in particular wanted to see the remaining sanctions on Iraq lifted entirely, or, failing that, the oil for food exemption significantly expanded - despite the fact that Saddam had unilaterally expelled the UN inspectors. So the matter was driven down to the rather narrow issue of WMDs. While the Administration's strategy did respond to the WMD problem, it was by no means the only or even chief reason or strategic objective driving us. Unfortunately the Administration allowed the terms of the discussion to be reduced to the subset the UN would agree to address, and allowed others to lapse in the public discussion, though they remained as strategic objectives of the administration.

What were these other strategic objectives?

Establish a modern, possibly liberal, government and economy in the one Moslem country most able (in view of culture, history, and resources) to sustain it and flourish in the modern world.

Remove an obstacle to the progressive evolution of Iran, and to the establishment of a just solution in the Middle East.

Provide a new, more reliable strategic anchor in the Persian Gulf, enabling us to reduce our dependence on a possibly failing regime in Saudi Arabia.

Remove an isolated, gangster regime known to be involved in the sale of weapons to terrorists, and able to do much more harm in this area if it wished to do so.

Get a cruel tyrant off the backs of the Iraqi people.

Pretty good objectives, if you ask me.

You may counter that the only basis for legal action by a sovereign power in such matters is through the consent of the UN. I don't accept that proposition, and it is clear that the Administration does not either. Moreover, I believe the American people, by a wide margin, would be unwilling to leave their security in this troubled world to the UN.
0 Replies
 
phineasf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 06:53 pm
Thomas wrote:
Scrat wrote:
Saddam shot first, then failed to live up to the agreement by which we stopped kicking his ass 13 years ago.

Who shot first obviously depends on the point in time at which you let your story begin, which is everybody's choice. As best I remember, Bush's justification in the runup of the war was that there was a link between Saddam and Al Queda. Ooops, no evidence for that.


There is a mountain of evidence that Saddam's Iraq was in bed with Al Qaeda, actually. Everyone may want to catch up:

http://www.theweeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/378fmxyz.asp
TITLED: Case Closed
From the November 24, 2003 issue: The U.S. government's secret memo detailing cooperation between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.
by Stephen F. Hayes, 11/24/2003

A followup by Hayes (worth the quick read):

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/396hflxy.asp?ZoomFont=YES
an excerpt:
James Woolsey, CIA director under President Bill Clinton, made reference to the George Tenet letter in an appearance this past weekend on "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer." Tenet's enumeration of the links and the evidence in the Feith memo has Woolsey convinced: "Anybody who says there is no working relationship between al Qaeda and Iraqi intelligence going back to the early '90s--they can only say that if they're illiterate. This is a slam dunk."
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 06:58 pm
Wasnt that that Weekly Standard article that the Pentagon then officially declared to be "inaccurate"?
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 06:59 pm
nimh wrote:
Wasnt that that Weekly Standard article that the Pentagon then officially declared to be "inaccurate"?

Indeed.
0 Replies
 
phineasf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 07:20 pm
nimh wrote:
Wasnt that that Weekly Standard article that the Pentagon then officially declared to be "inaccurate"?


How about reading the second link I provided, so I don't have to read it for you, to answer your question. I believe the Defense department is merely saying that the Feith report doesn't contain anything "new" - and if you read all of both links, and do some googling of other accounts that have just appeared on the web, you'll be better prepared to know if Iraq was involved with Al Qaeda.

Try this article: (at http://www.techcentralstation.com/111903D.html)

The Missing Link?
By Pejman Yousefzadeh Published 11/19/2003

This past weekend, writer Stephen Hayes of The Weekly Standard came out with a blockbuster article that was based on a leaked memorandum directed to Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts and ranking member Jay Rockefeller from Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith. The Feith memo was a compilation of raw intelligence reports that stated that Saddam Hussein's government and Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda organization have had a relationship that has lasted nearly a decade -- from 1990 to March, 2003. The relationship included work between the Ba'athist regime and the terrorist organization on "training in explosives and weapons of mass destruction, logistical support for terrorist attacks, al Qaeda training camps and safe haven in Iraq, and Iraqi financial support for al Qaeda -- perhaps even for Mohamed Atta." As Hayes points out, the memo mostly consists of alleging facts about the relationship between Saddam and Osama, along with some analysis and commentary, and discussions about the credibility of sources delivering the information.

In response to the publication of the memo, the Defense Department sent out this press release, which states:

News reports that the Defense Department recently confirmed new information with respect to contacts between al Qaeda and Iraq in a letter to the Senate Intelligence Committee are inaccurate.

A letter was sent to the Senate Intelligence Committee on October 27, 2003 from Douglas J. Feith, Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, in response to follow-up questions from his July 10 testimony. One of the questions posed by the committee asked the Department to provide the reports from the Intelligence Community to which he referred in his testimony before the Committee. These reports dealt with the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda.

The letter to the committee included a classified annex containing a list and description of the requested reports, so that the Committee could obtain the reports from the relevant members of the Intelligence Community.

The items listed in the classified annex were either raw reports or products of the CIA, the [National Security Agency], or, in one case, the [Defense Intelligence Agency]. The provision of the classified annex to the Intelligence Committee was cleared by other agencies. The selection of the documents was made by the Department of Defense to respond to the Committee's question. The classified annex was not an analysis of the substantive issue of the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda, and it drew no conclusions.

Summarized, the Pentagon press release says essentially that (1) there has been no confirmation of the information in the report, (2) the items were raw reports from the various intelligence agencies, and (3) the items were not a formal analysis -- presumably, they are the reports from which an analysis will be constructed.

But note what the Defense Department is not saying: It is not saying that the actual information that makes up the raw reports was false. Indeed, there was no disavowal of the accuracy of that information.

Because of the gravity of this report -- a report that purports to show the kind of active partnership and relationship between Saddam's regime and al Qaeda that would lend further credence to the Bush Administration's casus belli for launching Operation Iraqi Freedom, and a report which, due to its very content, may have very strong political implications on the domestic front -- a very careful and comprehensive analysis of the allegations made in the Feith memo must be undertaken.

To the extent possible, and to the degree that it will not jeopardize national security, members of both the House and Senate Intelligence Committees should inform the American public about the content of the memo, and whether it shows or demonstrates a noteworthy relationship between Saddam and al Qaeda. This can be done through public hearings and through joint press appearances -- the latter serving as a potential vehicle for reducing partisan invective to the greatest degree possible. Both the House and Senate Intelligence Committees have well-deserved reputations for bipartisanship and for placing the national interest over political interests -- the occasional foray into partisan politics notwithstanding. They will have to live up to that relationship given the gravity of the material contained in the Feith memo. The members of both intelligence committees will have to act not as partisans, but as educators -- both for the purpose of informing the public, and for examining the findings of the Feith memo and the impact of those findings on policy and on analysis of the effects of the war in Iraq.

Should the intelligence committees become mired in partisanship, a blue ribbon panel of experts and authorities on national security issues should be created to render a nonpartisan finding on the Feith memo. This panel can be made up of past Secretaries of State and Defense, past Directors of Central Intelligence, and past National Security Advisors. They can be modeled on the Tower Commission -- which fulfilled a similar function in analyzing the facts of the Iran-Contra affair -- and like the Tower Commission, they can make their findings public, and report them to the President and the Congress.

Given the current debate over the state of intelligence that led the nation to war, the emergence of the Feith memo is a very big deal, with a potentially huge impact on the debate. A lot has to be sorted out, however, which is why a comprehensive and dispassionate analysis is needed. Such an analysis will help illuminate the intelligence debate, the nature of the decision to go to war, and the extent to which the war in Iraq may have enhanced American national security by weakening al Qaeda and eliminating a terrorist-sponsoring regime that may have worked with al Qaeda on projects aimed at targeting Americans and American interests.

Let's be fair and impartial. Let's be thorough and complete. And let's investigate now.

END of that article.
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