Tarantulas wrote:angie wrote:Bin Laden's second-in-command (undeniably a hateful, violent, terrorist) has been able to use the Bush administration's extremist short-sighted militaristic policy quite effectively against the US. In recent broadcasts, al-Zawahiri has described the war on terrorism as "a war on Islam " and criticised Islamic leaders who co-operated with the US. "George W. Bush appoints corrupt leaders and protects them," he said in a tape broadcast by Al-Jazeera television.
I'm sure he would speak about any US President in the same way, or anyone who opposes Al Qaeda.
True, dat.
Tarantulas wrote:All any Arab has to do is look at a democratic Iraq, blossoming with freedom from the ashes of Saddam's dictatorship, to see why they should turn away from terrorism.
"Blossoming with freedom" would be a tad of an exaggeration. The glass is half full or half empty, but definitely not overflowing.
We discussed an interesting BBC/ABC/etc poll here:
Survey finds hope in occupied Iraq. It found that 70% of Iraqis said that things were going well or quite well in their lives, and that 56% said that things were better now than they were before the war. Thats good. Well, pretty good. If freedom was truly "blossoming", you would expect more than just a narrow majority thinking things were better than before. But OK.
On the other hand, given a choice, 42 percent said the invasion had "liberated" Iraq, while 41 percent say it had "humiliated" the country. Moreover, leaving aside the Kurds (who are indeed truly wholly on the invasion's side), only 33 percent of the
Arab Iraqis (Shi'ites and Sunnis included) consider the war to have been a liberation, while 48% think it was humiliating. More Arab Iraqis also think the invasion was wrong than right. Thats odd for a liberated people enjoying the blossoming freedom the invasion brought.
Moreover, if freedom is indeed flourishing, the Iraqis see it as something that's being achieved, on a day-to-day basis,
in spite of the Americans, rather than thanks to them. 51 percent of Iraqis opposes the presence of coalition forces; 39 percent supports it. Among Arab Iraqs thats 60% who want the Americans out versus 30% who want them to stay. The Iraqis greatly trust their religious leaders, but distrust the Governing Council and
greatly distrust the CPA and US/UK occupation forces.
Tarantulas wrote:And I think most rational people understand that Iraq supported terrorism. It is a documented fact that Saddam provided money to the families of suicide bombers, thereby supporting terrorism against Israel. There are many other links between Iraq and terrorism
But no links between Iraq and 9/11, which is what the US were at war about. I'm sure there are few Americans who are willing to send their sons and daughters out to die to fight people who support people who attack Israel. One would think that it was the people who attacked
New York and Washington that Americans are concerned about. The Iraq war was a mere distraction from the fight against those.
Tarantulas wrote:The voters in Spain ousted their government because of perceived lying about who was responsible for the attacks on their people. The Spanish government that supported the Coalition was projected to have won had it not been for their response to the attacks.
Compliments for critically discussing the Spanish elections without using the "appeasement" line. On-target.
Tarantulas wrote:angie wrote:The excruciatingly frustrating thing is that, after 911, we had the world community squarely in our corner. Bush and his lunatic cronies blew it.
Maybe we should have done nothing and waited to be attacked again, eh? Then the world would have even more sympathy for us. But instead, the US Congress (all Bush "cronies?") voted to give the President the capability to take action against Iraq, and he did,
Well, there's the odd disconnect. Yes, the world community was squarely in solidarity with the Americans after 911. And what is more, it remained largely on America's side when it decided NOT to "do nothing and wait to be attacked" - the US quickly attacked Afghanistan, the home of Osama bin Laden, perpetrator of 911 - and the world community in majority supported it. After all, nobody could have expected the US to just sit back and take it, right?
But then a strange thing happened. Still waving the banner of 911 retaliation, the US then set course for attacking a country and a regime that had nothing whatsoever to do with 911. And
thats where it lost the world community's support.
The choice wasnt between "doing nothing" and attacking Iraq - thats pure rhetorics. Most Americans who opposed the war didn't want the US to "do nothing" about the terrorists who had wrecked havoc on NY - they just didnt see what attacking Iraq (and losing crucial allies' support and co-operation while doing so) had to do with it.
Nobody expected the Bush admin to "do nothing" after 911. But four days after Osama struck America's cities, Wolfowitz wanted to attack
Iraq. Thats just
odd - not to mention irresponsible.
Tarantulas wrote:and the American people are grateful and overwhelmingly supportive of that decision.
Actually - well - how would you define "overwhelmingly"?
Asked whether it was the "right thing" or decision to go to war against Iraq or whether the US should indeed have gone to war, support is quite big - 56%, 57%, 64%
in different polls.
When the question is whether it was "worth it", the numbers drop - 46%, 50%, 52%, 55%.
"Grateful" might definitely be overstating it.
Tarantulas wrote:A few people in other countries may have been opposed to the war in Iraq.
"A few people"?
The only NATO countries I can think of where the public opinion was at least fifty-fifty on it - where at least public opinion was on the side of war part of the time, are the US, the UK, and to some extent the Netherlands. (I dunno about Canada and am not sure about Poland anymore, I think it was close there). In all the other NATO countries an overwhelming majority was opposed to the war - and thats just America's
allies.
Tarantulas wrote:angie wrote:My point ..... We are less safe now than we were a year ago. Much less safe. For that reason alone, the Lunatic-in-Chief has to go.
I don't understand why any discussion of our President by certain political groups always has to include hatred and insults. Even at the height of the Lewinsky scandal, those opposed to President Clinton were more inclined to point and laugh than to engage in name-calling and hatred. It doesn't contribute anything meaningful to a rational discussion.
Hear hear. Apart from the "conservatives didnt do this to Clinton" thing of course,
that bit is nonsense.