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What The World Thinks of America (BBC program)

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 07:35 pm
phineasf wrote:
How about reading the second link I provided, so I don't have to read it for you, to answer your question.


Touche. And thanks for the additional post.

phineasf wrote:
if you read all of both links, and do some googling of other accounts that have just appeared on the web, you'll be better prepared to know if Iraq was involved with Al Qaeda.


Last time I Googled about it, in reaction to the Weekly Standard article, I found, among other things, this:

Quote:
Yesterday, allegations of new evidence of connections between Iraq and al Qaeda contained in a classified annex attached to Feith’s Oct. 27 letter to leaders of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence were published in the Weekly Standard. [..] The classified annex summarized raw intelligence reports but did not analyze them or address their accuracy, according to a senior administration official familiar with the matter.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 07:41 pm
nimh, Gotta remain sceptical about these last minute allegations about connecting Saddam with Al Qaida - especially since the president already said none existed. Let's hear some concrete evidence before we jump to any conclusions.
0 Replies
 
phineasf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 11:03 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
nimh, Gotta remain sceptical about these last minute allegations about connecting Saddam with Al Qaida - especially since the president already said none existed. Let's hear some concrete evidence before we jump to any conclusions.


Bush said only, that there was no evidence to connect Saddam with the September 11 massacre.

and BTW, there's nothing "last minute" about any of the facts contained in the Frieh memo that was given to the US Senate, for their analysis.

Time will tell, and the remaining truths should be told.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 12:25 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
nimh, Gotta remain sceptical about these last minute allegations about connecting Saddam with Al Qaida - especially since the president already said none existed. Let's hear some concrete evidence before we jump to any conclusions.

Shame you're not equally skeptical of reports that paint the administration in a bad light. You seem awfully eager to accept the veracity of those. Care to tell us why?

[edited to remove shocking typographical error]
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 12:54 pm
voracity? now the left is voracious, as well as any other epithets you've applied ?

personally, i barely had sufficient appetite to finish my lunch . . .
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 01:16 pm
Setanta wrote:
voracity? now the left is voracious, as well as any other epithets you've applied ?

personally, i barely had sufficient appetite to finish my lunch . . .

Oops! Yes, you caught me in a typo! Shocked
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 01:33 pm
Seems to be a topic on the site, today, Boss, just havin' a little fun, no offense intended . . .
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 01:49 pm
The latest (BBC) diagram of the US-UK relation

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/image_maps/03/11/1069067832/img/image.gif

link to BBC-website

So the relation is still lower than at Churchill/Roosevelt and will have a lot to climb until reaching the Thatcher/Reagan-level, they say.
0 Replies
 
phineasf
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 02:25 pm
nimh wrote:
Last time I Googled about it, in reaction to the Weekly Standard article....


I just set up a Google News Alert (that beta feature is just too cool!!!) at GOOGLE NEWS for the phrase "Feith Memo" and it's been working well. The story has exploded on the Web, it seems. There's even a New York Post story titled, Bush Was Right - hehe! Hey, it's about time, GWBush was right about something, eh? LOL

Check them all out and draw your own conclusions:
http://news.google.com/news?q=Feith+memo+&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=nn
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 03:56 pm
Setanta wrote:
Seems to be a topic on the site, today, Boss, just havin' a little fun, no offense intended . . .

No, I took no offense! Cool I've been known to point out a trivial gaff here and there too! Frankly, I'd rather have you point it out, and give me a chance to correct it, than leave it and have people think I actually thought the word was spelled as I misspelled it. Shocked
0 Replies
 
The Beat
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Mar, 2004 06:40 pm
WOW
That google search was excellent. Smile

I found this report immediately:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-tenet10mar10,1,1718044.story?coll=la-news-politics-national

(you need to sign up to see it - LA Times)

excerpts:

"March 10, 2004 E-mail story Print


THE NATION
Spy Unit Skirted CIA on Iraq"

"The disclosure suggests that the controversial Pentagon office played a greater role than previously understood in shaping the administration's views on Iraq's alleged ties to the terrorist network behind the Sept. 11 attacks, and bypassed usual channels to make a case that conflicted with the conclusions of CIA analysts."

"Testifying before the Senate Armed Services Committee, Tenet said he was unaware until recently that the Pentagon unit had presented its findings to the offices of Vice President Dick Cheney and national security advisor Condoleezza Rice."

"Tenet came under sharp attack from Democrats, who called the prewar intelligence a "fiasco," pointed to what they said were disturbing disparities between classified CIA estimates and more alarming versions released to the public before the war, and criticized the CIA director for saying recently that the agency never portrayed Iraq as an imminent threat.

"The fact that the intelligence assessments before the war were so wildly off the mark should trouble all Americans," said Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), the ranking Democrat on the committee."

This is clearly an administration out of control, which simply bypassed standard procedure to achieve its desired results. Well, we now have what they wanted: 2 wars, battle troops in 3 separate countries, daily attacks in all three countries, a jobless recovery, and nation thoroughly divided.

MERRY CHRISTMAS - HO HO HO Confused
0 Replies
 
angie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2004 09:51 pm
.

The essential question regarding the entire Iraq issue must be : Are we (not just the US, but the entire world community) safer now from the threat of terrorism ?

Is there anyone who would disagree with the response that we are all less safe from those who hate us and would choose to kill us in a heartbeat if given the chance?

We are LESS safe from them because this administration has behaved arrogantly and defiantly allowing the US to be painted as self-serving, aggressive, and anti-Muslim.

Bin Laden's second-in-command (undeniably a hateful, violent, terrorist) has been able to use the Bush administration's extremist short-sighted militaristic policy quite effectively against the US. In recent broadcasts, al-Zawahiri has described the war on terrorism as "a war on Islam " and criticised Islamic leaders who co-operated with the US. "George W. Bush appoints corrupt leaders and protects them," he said in a tape broadcast by Al-Jazeera television.

Every sane person in the world now knows that Bush fabricated an Iraq-terrorism link to generate support for a war that people everywhere would otherwise have refused to support. And now, one year later, people (regardless of their feelings about Saddam) view Bush as a liar and an invader. Look at Spain - the people ousted their government for supporting Bush. Look at the continuing anti-war protests all over the world.

It is insane to think we can be safe without sincere legitimate support from the world community. The excruciatingly frustrating thing is that, after 911, we had the world community squarely in our corner. Bush and his lunatic cronies blew it.

My point ..... We are less safe now than we were a year ago. Much less safe. For that reason alone, the Lunatic-in-Chief has to go.

.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2004 09:54 pm
But you realize there are those out there who take the same basic information (more attacks, more diverse targets) as evidence that we are "winning." It is the sort of mentality that the little guy who goes into a bar, and picks a fight with someone, gets blasted, then considers himself vindicated because he got beaten up, has! It makes no sense whatsoever. Sad
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 10:48 am
angie wrote:
The essential question regarding the entire Iraq issue must be : Are we (not just the US, but the entire world community) safer now from the threat of terrorism ?

Is there anyone who would disagree with the response that we are all less safe from those who hate us and would choose to kill us in a heartbeat if given the chance?

Yes, I disagree completely. World governments are cooperating as never before in the fight against terrorism, and terrorist cells are being discovered and uprooted. Look what happened to Al Qaeda's leadership - almost half of the people listed are dead or in custody. The world is starting to wake up and take care of terrorism instead of sitting quietly, hoping some other country will be attacked first.

angie wrote:
Bin Laden's second-in-command (undeniably a hateful, violent, terrorist) has been able to use the Bush administration's extremist short-sighted militaristic policy quite effectively against the US. In recent broadcasts, al-Zawahiri has described the war on terrorism as "a war on Islam " and criticised Islamic leaders who co-operated with the US. "George W. Bush appoints corrupt leaders and protects them," he said in a tape broadcast by Al-Jazeera television.

I'm sure he would speak about any US President in the same way, or anyone who opposes Al Qaeda. Why should anyone care about his opinion anyway? Let him rant on the radio. All any Arab has to do is look at a democratic Iraq, blossoming with freedom from the ashes of Saddam's dictatorship, to see why they should turn away from terrorism.

angie wrote:
Every sane person in the world...

I've told you a hundred million times not to exaggerate. Very Happy

angie wrote:
...now knows that Bush fabricated an Iraq-terrorism link to generate support for a war that people everywhere would otherwise have refused to support. And now, one year later, people (regardless of their feelings about Saddam) view Bush as a liar and an invader.

Some people have that view, yes. Others are proud of our President for taking decisive action to oppose terrorism and remove a brutal dictator from power. And I think most rational people understand that Iraq supported terrorism. It is a documented fact that Saddam provided money to the families of suicide bombers, thereby supporting terrorism against Israel. There are many other links between Iraq and terrorism that are available if you are willing to search the Internet.

angie wrote:
Look at Spain - the people ousted their government for supporting Bush. Look at the continuing anti-war protests all over the world.

The voters in Spain ousted their government because of perceived lying about who was responsible for the attacks on their people. The Spanish government that supported the Coalition was projected to have won had it not been for their response to the attacks.

angie wrote:
It is insane to think we can be safe without sincere legitimate support from the world community. The excruciatingly frustrating thing is that, after 911, we had the world community squarely in our corner. Bush and his lunatic cronies blew it.

Maybe we should have done nothing and waited to be attacked again, eh? Then the world would have even more sympathy for us. But instead, the US Congress (all Bush "cronies?") voted to give the President the capability to take action against Iraq, and he did, and the American people are grateful and overwhelmingly supportive of that decision. A few people in other countries may have been opposed to the war in Iraq. They are entitled to their opinions, as I am entitled to mine. And my opinion is that liberating Iraq was a good thing.

angie wrote:
My point ..... We are less safe now than we were a year ago. Much less safe. For that reason alone, the Lunatic-in-Chief has to go.

I don't understand why any discussion of our President by certain political groups always has to include hatred and insults. Even at the height of the Lewinsky scandal, those opposed to President Clinton were more inclined to point and laugh than to engage in name-calling and hatred. It doesn't contribute anything meaningful to a rational discussion.

Based on the page linked above, we are in fact 43% safer now than we were on September 11, because we have removed all those Al Qaeda leaders from their organization. And that's a good thing.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 11:09 am
As an observation, i will note that throughout the attempt "to get" Clinton, i heard insulting remarks and insulting characterizations of him constantly. The attempt to grab the moral high ground is typical of conservatives, and typically feeble and groundless.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 11:39 am
The problem with the statement (and those like it) :"We are winning, look how many senior AQ leaders we have destroyed" is that AQ isn't a government or a beaurocracy. It is a loosely confederated group of smaller, local organizations under the banner of a larger organization. There does not seem to be any sort of top downward control.
Clarke on Sunday spoke of Bush's desire for a pack of cards, with AQ leader's faces on them, that he could "x out" as they were eliminated. Bush, like many others on the far right, is so used to the business/beaurocracy model of organization that he probably is unable or unwilling to attempt to understand that there are other, more efective models of organization for terrorist organizations. Terrorism, and other forms of espionage are not activities that lend themselves to strong chains of command. Independence is the key.
This is one reason why large massed military forces are likely to continue to be inefective as a counter to terrorism.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 12:50 pm
Setanta wrote:
As an observation, i will note that throughout the attempt "to get" Clinton, i heard insulting remarks and insulting characterizations of him constantly. The attempt to grab the moral high ground is typical of conservatives, and typically feeble and groundless.

Please explain how calling the President of the United States "the Lunatic-in-Chief" contributes anything meaningful to a rational discussion.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 02:03 pm
angie wrote:
The essential question regarding the entire Iraq issue must be : Are we (not just the US, but the entire world community) safer now from the threat of terrorism ?

Is there anyone who would disagree with the response that we are all less safe from those who hate us and would choose to kill us in a heartbeat if given the chance?
...
My point ..... We are less safe now than we were a year ago.

I could not disagree with you more.

We are far more safe now that so many terrorists are dead.

We are far more safe now that we are tracking and stripping away the funding of terrorists.

We are far more safe now that there are fewer safe havens for terrorists in the world.

We are far more safe now that our efforts have frightened Libya into playing nice with the rest of the world.

We are far more safe now that the terrorists are far less safe.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 05:41 pm
Tarantulas wrote:
angie wrote:
Bin Laden's second-in-command (undeniably a hateful, violent, terrorist) has been able to use the Bush administration's extremist short-sighted militaristic policy quite effectively against the US. In recent broadcasts, al-Zawahiri has described the war on terrorism as "a war on Islam " and criticised Islamic leaders who co-operated with the US. "George W. Bush appoints corrupt leaders and protects them," he said in a tape broadcast by Al-Jazeera television.

I'm sure he would speak about any US President in the same way, or anyone who opposes Al Qaeda.


True, dat.

Tarantulas wrote:
All any Arab has to do is look at a democratic Iraq, blossoming with freedom from the ashes of Saddam's dictatorship, to see why they should turn away from terrorism.


"Blossoming with freedom" would be a tad of an exaggeration. The glass is half full or half empty, but definitely not overflowing.

We discussed an interesting BBC/ABC/etc poll here: Survey finds hope in occupied Iraq. It found that 70% of Iraqis said that things were going well or quite well in their lives, and that 56% said that things were better now than they were before the war. Thats good. Well, pretty good. If freedom was truly "blossoming", you would expect more than just a narrow majority thinking things were better than before. But OK.

On the other hand, given a choice, 42 percent said the invasion had "liberated" Iraq, while 41 percent say it had "humiliated" the country. Moreover, leaving aside the Kurds (who are indeed truly wholly on the invasion's side), only 33 percent of the Arab Iraqis (Shi'ites and Sunnis included) consider the war to have been a liberation, while 48% think it was humiliating. More Arab Iraqis also think the invasion was wrong than right. Thats odd for a liberated people enjoying the blossoming freedom the invasion brought.

Moreover, if freedom is indeed flourishing, the Iraqis see it as something that's being achieved, on a day-to-day basis, in spite of the Americans, rather than thanks to them. 51 percent of Iraqis opposes the presence of coalition forces; 39 percent supports it. Among Arab Iraqs thats 60% who want the Americans out versus 30% who want them to stay. The Iraqis greatly trust their religious leaders, but distrust the Governing Council and greatly distrust the CPA and US/UK occupation forces.

Tarantulas wrote:
And I think most rational people understand that Iraq supported terrorism. It is a documented fact that Saddam provided money to the families of suicide bombers, thereby supporting terrorism against Israel. There are many other links between Iraq and terrorism


But no links between Iraq and 9/11, which is what the US were at war about. I'm sure there are few Americans who are willing to send their sons and daughters out to die to fight people who support people who attack Israel. One would think that it was the people who attacked New York and Washington that Americans are concerned about. The Iraq war was a mere distraction from the fight against those.

Tarantulas wrote:
The voters in Spain ousted their government because of perceived lying about who was responsible for the attacks on their people. The Spanish government that supported the Coalition was projected to have won had it not been for their response to the attacks.


Compliments for critically discussing the Spanish elections without using the "appeasement" line. On-target.

Tarantulas wrote:
angie wrote:
The excruciatingly frustrating thing is that, after 911, we had the world community squarely in our corner. Bush and his lunatic cronies blew it.

Maybe we should have done nothing and waited to be attacked again, eh? Then the world would have even more sympathy for us. But instead, the US Congress (all Bush "cronies?") voted to give the President the capability to take action against Iraq, and he did,


Well, there's the odd disconnect. Yes, the world community was squarely in solidarity with the Americans after 911. And what is more, it remained largely on America's side when it decided NOT to "do nothing and wait to be attacked" - the US quickly attacked Afghanistan, the home of Osama bin Laden, perpetrator of 911 - and the world community in majority supported it. After all, nobody could have expected the US to just sit back and take it, right?

But then a strange thing happened. Still waving the banner of 911 retaliation, the US then set course for attacking a country and a regime that had nothing whatsoever to do with 911. And thats where it lost the world community's support.

The choice wasnt between "doing nothing" and attacking Iraq - thats pure rhetorics. Most Americans who opposed the war didn't want the US to "do nothing" about the terrorists who had wrecked havoc on NY - they just didnt see what attacking Iraq (and losing crucial allies' support and co-operation while doing so) had to do with it.

Nobody expected the Bush admin to "do nothing" after 911. But four days after Osama struck America's cities, Wolfowitz wanted to attack Iraq. Thats just odd - not to mention irresponsible.

Tarantulas wrote:
and the American people are grateful and overwhelmingly supportive of that decision.


Actually - well - how would you define "overwhelmingly"?

Asked whether it was the "right thing" or decision to go to war against Iraq or whether the US should indeed have gone to war, support is quite big - 56%, 57%, 64% in different polls.

When the question is whether it was "worth it", the numbers drop - 46%, 50%, 52%, 55%.

"Grateful" might definitely be overstating it.

Tarantulas wrote:
A few people in other countries may have been opposed to the war in Iraq.


"A few people"? Very Happy

The only NATO countries I can think of where the public opinion was at least fifty-fifty on it - where at least public opinion was on the side of war part of the time, are the US, the UK, and to some extent the Netherlands. (I dunno about Canada and am not sure about Poland anymore, I think it was close there). In all the other NATO countries an overwhelming majority was opposed to the war - and thats just America's allies.

Tarantulas wrote:
angie wrote:
My point ..... We are less safe now than we were a year ago. Much less safe. For that reason alone, the Lunatic-in-Chief has to go.

I don't understand why any discussion of our President by certain political groups always has to include hatred and insults. Even at the height of the Lewinsky scandal, those opposed to President Clinton were more inclined to point and laugh than to engage in name-calling and hatred. It doesn't contribute anything meaningful to a rational discussion.


Hear hear. Apart from the "conservatives didnt do this to Clinton" thing of course, that bit is nonsense.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2004 11:03 am
nimh wrote:
But no links between Iraq and 9/11, which is what the US were at war about.

nimh wrote:
Still waving the banner of 911 retaliation, the US then set course for attacking a country and a regime that had nothing whatsoever to do with 911.

Here is Public Law 107-243, October 16, 2002, "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002." This is a joint resolution of the US Congress authorizing the President to take action against Iraq. In it, the connection between Iraq and September 11 is described in the following way:

Public Law 107-243 wrote:
Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

I don't know what the consensus of this board is about whether Iraq helped Al Qaeda, but I've seen several references confirming ties between the two. Anyway, the Public Law cites many different reasons for taking action against Iraq. Support of terrorism is only one reason for the action.

You'll also note the following in that Public Law:

Public Law 107-243 wrote:

Of course we know that 1998 was during the Clinton administration. Congress urged President Clinton to take action, citing Weapons of Mass Destruction as the reason. Maybe we can change the chant of "Bush lied" to "Congress lied." Also...

Public Law 107-243 wrote:
Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;

More from 1998. The military action against Iraq was predetermined long before the debut of George W. Bush on the Presidential scene.

For reference purposes, here is the President's global message of March 18, 2003. The military action started on March 19. And I agree with it, and support the Congress and the President in their continued war against terrorism.

As for what other people think about my country, I say let them think what they want. I have my own opinions about other governments, and I have a right to my opinion as does everyone else (have a right to their opinions, that is). But I don't think my country needs to change based on the opinion of some beauty shop owner in Barcelona, or a garbage man in Grenoble, or a mechanic in Magdeburg. Let those folks demonstrate against the repression of the citizens of Cuba, or Chechnya, or North Korea, if they want to protest something. They should be celebrating the liberation of the citizens of Iraq and congratulating the Coalition for getting rid of Saddam and his henchmen. I get the impression that many of the protestors don't have a strong feeling one way or the other about US policy. They're just happy to get out in the fresh air with friends and attend a free event. And maybe get their faces on TV.

Oh, and BTW nimh, thanks for the nice response. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
 

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