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Polls and that darn race thing

 
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 01:25 pm
Joe, thanks a mil for a thoughtful, honest and insightful reply. It makes the rest of this stuff tolerable.
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 01:37 pm
I guess I did not fully understand the question snood.
I will get back with a better answer than, I dunno.
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fbaezer
 
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Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 02:03 pm
Just to say that a similar pattern occurs in face-to-face polls about TV watching and newspaper reading (in Mexico, so my post is not about race in the US, but about polls).

News and cultural programs get a higher percentage on face-to-face polls than on actual ratings, while gossip programs get a lower one.
A similar thing comes when answering the questions: "Do you read newspapers" "How often?" "Which one?". If we were to believe the polls, more people read than the actual sales tell, they read more often and they read more serious papers than tabloids. The market says they don't.

In a nutshell: some people do lie, trying to present themselves to the interviewer in a better light. And perhaps, at the moment of the interview they actually forget they saw the gossip show and remember they saw the news program, even if was last week's.
This kind of polls are good to make following (that is, to see changes in the public opinion and habits), but not to throw conclussions from the bulk data of any given single poll.

Finally, the effect is much lower in telephone polls, perhaps because the interviewed is not SEEN by the interviewer.
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snood
 
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Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 02:10 pm
Interesting. Two completely different reasons for saying one thing on a poll and then doing another.

I think it may be a combination of what Joe said and what fbaezer said. I think there might really be a racism that some people aren't even aware of in themselves, as Joe said, which causes the split between what they say they'd do, and what they actually do. I also think its possible, as fbaezer said, that people may just straight up lie to make themselves look better.
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 03:01 pm
Some of this was interesting.....

Quote:
Racism has taken on a more polite tone....
Now it is symbolic, unintentional, passive.
Speaking at Southwest's first annual "One World" cultural celebration, Soto said racism is hidden in the workplace, schools and public places.
People believe they are open and inclusive.
But racism is real.
....
Many just don't even see the problem.
They won't admit race plays a role in the decisions people make everyday.
They say the Civil Rights Act cured the problem.
They say great progress has been made.
They say they don't discriminate. One of their best friends is African-American or Hispanic or Asian.

But racism is a current event, he said, in classrooms in every school in the city, the state and the country. In every workplace.



And then there is this.....

Quote:
But campaign strategists said that what voters say and how they vote are two different things. Many pollsters have found it is difficult, if not impossible, to gauge what lies in voters hearts when it comes to race.
.....
Paul Goldman has seen firsthand the disparity between what voters say and what they do. Goldman managed former Virginia Gov. L. Douglas Wilders campaign. Wilder, a Democrat, was the nations first elected black governor, serving 1990-94.

Election Day polls showed Wilder with a 10-point lead, but he won by a little more than 6,000 votes. People didnt want to say they were voting against Doug Wilder, Goldman said. It was a fascinating phenomenon. In their heart, they knew they were voting against Wilder for the wrong reason.
Goldman had been warned about that. Similar polling abnormalities had occurred in Texas when other black candidates had run for office.

We didnt know on Election Day whether we were going to win or lose, Goldman said. We knew there was a pocket of people that werent going to tell you the truth.

Quinnipiac University in Hamden, Conn., which puts out polls on the Pennsylvania governors race, has not asked voters about Swanns race and it wont.

Its a very difficult question to poll on, said Clay Richards, assistant director of the universitys Polling Institute. Its a question people tend to give the politically correct answer.

Hes already overcome the race barrier in other fields. One of the things that blurs the race line is that theyve already accepted the person as a popular star, that has helped overcome prejudices.

Richards said there are bigger factors than race, including Rendells strength. Still, if it comes down to a close election, race could make a difference, he said.

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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 03:07 pm
Quote:
Now, the character was decisive and bold, a leader who knew who he was, but able to see his own faults and make compromises.


By the description alone, I find it hard to picture a president...
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 03:13 pm
This quote from the articles Candidone C&P'ed...

Quote:
In their heart, they knew they were voting against Wilder for the wrong reason.


says alot to me.
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nimh
 
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Reply Sun 24 Sep, 2006 01:05 pm
Yes. <nods>

I think what Joe said and what Fbaezer said are not so completely different, for that reason. I dont think people lie to the pollster to make themselves look better to the pollster; but to themselves. And do so at least partly unconcsiously. Its about a cognitive dissonance between their perception of themselves, which is highly influenced by how they like to see themselves (reads the papers, isnt racist), and how they behave in actuality, driven by instincts that they might rather not be aware of let alone confess to anyone, no matter how anonymous. Thats I think the point where Joe's and Fbaezer's comments converge.

As for going around whether the phenomenon actually occurs, there's this article that, despite BernardR having posted it here about two dozen times, actually is rather interesting: RACE AND RELUCTANT RESPONDENTS.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Sep, 2006 01:24 pm
I can only speak for myself. I would not vote for Colin Powell, but only because he is a Republican. I do not vote for any Republicans. On the other hand, I voted in the presidential primary for Jesse Jackson one year, and would proudly do so again.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Sep, 2006 02:18 pm
snood wrote:

I did qualify that "obvious" thing


Requires that you said that "obvious" thing.

Why--oh--why didn't you just admit it?

_______________

Of course, I'd vote for Colin or Condi--I'd volunteer in Condi's campaign headquarters. And can't conceive of anyone voting for Jackson.

Black has nothing to do with it.

However, I realize this is not a universal sentiment, yet.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Sep, 2006 04:49 pm
Nimh - I hadn't read that article on polling before - thanks for posting it here. I think it clarifies a lot about why the numbers come out as they do, especially what it says about the differences in "reluctant" responders and "amenable" responders.

I'd recommend everyone who desires to better understand the phenomenon read that article.

Thanks to all who have tried to offer their insights into what makes the election polling numbers different from the outcomes in biracial elections.
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kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Oct, 2006 12:25 am
snood wrote:
Nimh - I hadn't read that article on polling before - thanks for posting it here. I think it clarifies a lot about why the numbers come out as they do, especially what it says about the differences in "reluctant" responders and "amenable" responders.

I'd recommend everyone who desires to better understand the phenomenon read that article.

Thanks to all who have tried to offer their insights into what makes the election polling numbers different from the outcomes in biracial elections.


its a set-up snood, the more blacks win elections the more white folks can then bitch about all them blacks living off the public dole.

"ballot queens," doncha know.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Oct, 2006 09:59 am
I have been urging people to vote for Deval Patrick for governor of MA. I voted for him in the primary and will vote for him in the mid-term elections. Not just saying it either. I find it hard to believe that people would say one thing and vote differently. Seems odd.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Oct, 2006 10:09 am
I'm sorry, I can't read that poll article right now..... just don't have it in me. So, I'll ask you all some questions that might be answered in that article. How is this phenomenon (racial slippage! Ha!) measured? Do pollsters ask the same people before and after the vote and note that those people changed their minds?

I've been thinking that if the polls are showing a clear victory for one candidate his or her supporters may let the voting be done by the others who are like-minded. And that the voters who support the underdog might come out in bigger numbers if they think that their candidate has a high chance of losing. Does that make any sense? Been covered already?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 01:49 pm
Interesting. In the CT thread, I posted a chunk from a pollster.com analysis on the Tennessee Senate race, mostly illustrating how the Zogby Internet poll, specifically (as distinct from his phone polls, etc etc) has been strikingly out of sync. However, the same post, from 4 October, makes another interesting point that's more relevant to this thread.

Tennessee's Democratic Senate candidate, Harold Ford Jr., would be the first black Senator elected in the South since Reconstruction. Currently, the polls generally have the race pretty much exactly tied. So any effect in which some people will tell the pollster that they'll vote for the black person but then in actuality vote for his white opponent could be decisive.

However, something strange is the matter. You know that there is a new breed of polls out there - automated ones. That is to say, the respondent called on by the pollster no longer gets a real human being on the line; he gets an automated tape, which asks him the questions and records the answers (somehow, dont ask). Now you would think that any urge people might have about giving the more socially acceptable answer (eg, sure, I'll vote for the black guy who's standing for my party) would disappear if they're not actually talking to a live person. The advantage of anonymity and all. But the weird thing is: Ford is actually doing better in the automated polls. Read on:

Quote:
As Barone noticed, the five automated surveys conducted since July (including one by SurveyUSA) have been slightly and consistently more favorable to Ford than the three conventional surveys (to by Mason-Dixon and one by Middle Tennessee State University). But the differences are not large. [..]

Mickey Kaus picks up on Barone's observation that the automated polls have been a bit more favorable to the Democrats in Tennessee and speculates about a potentially hidden Democratic vote:

    Maybe a new and different kind of PC error is at work--call it Red State Solidarity Error. Voters in Tennessee [b]don't want to admit in front of their conservative, patriotic fellow citizens that they've lost confidence in Bush and the GOPs in the middle of a war on terror[/b] and that they're going to vote for the [i]black Democrat[/i]. They're embarrassed to tell it to a human pollster. But talking to a robot--or voting by secret ballot--is a different story. A machine isn't going to call them "weak."
Reynolds updates his original post with a link to Kaus and asks whether the same pattern exists elsewhere.

Another good question, although for now our answer is incomplete. We did a similar "pollster compare" graphic on the Virginia Senate race over the weekend. The pattern of automated surveys showing a slightly more favorable result for the Democrats was similar from July to early September, but the pattern has disappeared over the last few weeks as the surveys have converged. In Virginia, the most recent Mason-Dixon survey has been the most favorable to Democrat Jim Webb.

While we will definitely take a closer look at this question in other states in the coming days and weeks, it is worth remembering that most of the "conventional surveys" in Tennessee and Virginia were done by one firm (Mason-Dixon), while most of the automated surveys to date in Tennessee have been done by Rasmussen. As such, the differences may result from differences in methodology other than the mode of interviewer among these firms (such as how they sample and select likely voters or whether they weight by party as Rasmussen does).

To follow the links that were originally included in the above see the original post.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 02:00 pm
Very interesting indeed, nimh. My gut reaction is that those who'd lie (intentionally, or for some unconscious reason) to a live person would lie to an automated poll, as well.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 11:11 am
Blacks did no worse than in the polls

This thread touched upon an interesting issue. And as the article that used the example of Doug Wilder's race in 1990 showed, so-called "racial slippage" was a real phenomenon, with a clear impact, in the past.

It was all the more an important question whether this would again be so considering that the 2006 races featured more blacks running major-party campaigns for Senator or Governor than ever before.

The good news is: there appears to have been no "racial slippage" this time. The black candidates, on the whole (with a single exception), did no worse than they had been measured to be doing in the polls.

Pollster.com has a quickie preliminary overview up on how the average of the last five polls out compared with the actual (still unofficial) election result, for both the Senate and the Governors races:

http://www.pollster.com/11-08%20Senate.jpg

http://www.pollster.com/11-08%20Governor.jpg


Now select, from those tables, how the African-American candidates did in comparison with the polls:

Code: Polls Result Difference

Candidate State %age Margin %age Margin %age Margin

Steele Maryland 45 - 3 44 -10 -1 -7

Ford Tennessee 44 - 6 48 - 3 +4 +3

Deval Massachus. 54 +24 56 +21 +2 -3

Blackwell Ohio 36 -22 37 -23 +1 -1

Swann Pennsylv. 36 -22 40 -20 +4 +2


This is not just philosophically pleasant news about the role of race - but also a piece of reassurance for those of us who warily eye very favourable polls about possible presidential contender Obama...
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 11:13 am
I know, I said so here:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2368059#2368059

(I don't often get to do original analysis, I was happy about it but it wasn't picked up on for some reason. This is of course much more thorough and gives a more significant result.)
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 11:18 am
That's real encouraging - the fact that it appears people took action in the voting booths that reflected what they told pollsters beforehand.

Maybe we're getting somewhere?
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 11:25 am
I have and will continue to vote for black candidates that are the right person for the job.

If they get up there after the race, however, and say "This is a great day for African Americans", they are going to hear from me, and they aren't going to like what they hear.
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