Saved ?

Short answer
IMO
Not being saved from God - Saved for God!

Same as many of the physical laws that we know in the universe, ie - (most easy)
positive - negative
up - down (gravity from our perspective)

with God - without God
save - notsaved
heaven - hell

I cannot buy this at all. my 2cents again
God is selfish in-a-way he wants to be worshipped, honored, and most high, the exhaulted above all. If you seek you will find - turn away and be lost. To me it's perfect, you have a will - God said you wanna live with me you do X, if you don't want to do X and get X. Just depends whose buying. Different strokes for different folks, but point is if you hear and see and turn away, same on you I think the message is. Otherwise there is nothing special or set-a-part for doing it in Faith as in an assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. (NO HARD PROOF)

I think there is a problem in that - but I'm not the one passing judgement in the end - so do what you think is best :wink:

Listening, and interested in what you all have to say...........

husker, You have made a judgement by saying, "with God - without God save - notsaved heaven - hell" Some of us do not abide by those judgements. c.i.

First of all, Husker, thank you for your response.

I have a couple of questions so that I can be sure of what you are saying here. Please bear with me -- and if possible, please assume I am asking meaningful, honest questions rather than trying to backdoor an insult. (I do not do that!)

I'll start with just one.




As concerns your phrase "NO HARD PROOF" -- how does that differ from "this is just a guess?"

husker, I was being a tad sarcastic. I just think we all have a human (call it collective if you will) morality that does not necessarily depend on an outside power to be effective in one's life, or afterlife.

My examples of what I would put by faith in the same as physical laws:

not a judgement on you unless you think that - I hope not!

ps - there is a judgement in almost every breath you take in and out - depends on how you use it.

Frank I said that just for you just depends on how you want to define it. here's a rough example: Did you know they are redefining gravity? Did you know that it's possible for something to accelerate, against the preceived gravity force? ie a ball in your hand, tossed up and not coming down? instead speeding faster and faster away? makes some shambles some very significant theories we have. Now can I find you the site? Nope - saw a special on PBS. (new scientific data from the Hubble program)

frank et. al., allow me to let the other shoe drop.

(I was unable to finish the last half of my post, so here is the rest.)

I am in no way advocating that those who believe differently should not feel free to comment, on this or any other thread at any time.

What I was attempting to convey is this:

If one wishes to comment, feel free; if one wishes to proselytize their position by pointing out the folly or superstitious aspect of belief in religion, then prepare to be met with the same donnybrook I should rightly receive if I were to venture into a liberal themed thread and tell people that they are stupid and slow witted to have those beliefs.

Now to your question:


The god to which you refer is a vengeful god, seeking out those who turn their backs on him and blasting them with his celestial retribution.

I don't know that god.

As husker points out, the Christian God is a jealous God, but He is also a God that offers His creation free will, and all that it entails.

God's saving grace is often referred to as the "peace that passes all human understanding" and quite literally it is just that.

I hope this clarifies my earlier post.

max, It clarifies your point, but how come so many fail? The majority? c.i.

Ok, here is where it may get dicey, so bear with me.

I will defend to the death your right to make such proclamations, ci, but you should know.

When Christians hear statements such as yours it is the same as if you were saying that you "refuse to be subject to the laws of gravity".

Saying it is one thing, actually putting yourself outside the impact of such statements is quite another.

"Do you want a happy god or an angry god?" -Bart Simpson to Rod and Tod

On a more serious note, what about the concept that god is a human-made reflection of our own triumphs and frailties, but even though conceived by us, a life without god(s) is a life not worth living?

sorry ci, I'm slow witted this afternoon, :wink: to what were you referring?

I would disagree with that statement for two reasons, cav.

One, the implication that "if you hatch a chicken, you get an egg", I believe that man is a God made creature, not vice versa.

Second, and some may find it odd to hear me say this, man does not need God to live. (On the temporal plane, anyway).

I would not be so presumptuous as to state that the honest decent hard working athiests with whom I have come to know on these boards are living a life that is "not worth living".

This requires a judgement call beyond my purview.

I can only speak from my personal experience of living a life with and without God.......................









.................with is better.

Max thanks for your additional comments.


Max & Husker


I really didn't get an answer to my question to Husker about the difference between saying "NO HARD PROOF" -- and "this is just a guess?"

Both of you have talked about your "beliefs."

Theists do this all the time -- talk about what they "believe."

In some threads -- in the majority of threads devoted to this issue - one theist will say "I believe A" -- then another comes along and says, "I believe B" -- then another who says, "I believe C" -- then another will aver "I believe A & C but not B." And on and on it goes to where in effect we have some people saying "I believe in C and H and M and a bit of G and Q - but not at all in A and B.

I'm sure both of you have seen this -- and in fact, there are examples of that kind of thing right here in this thread - during the last few posts, as a matter of fact.

Now it comes as no shock to either of you that I consider beliefs to be guesses (or estimates, if you like that word better.)

None of them (beliefs, guesses, estimates), as far as I can tell, have any of that FIRM PROOF Husker mentioned -- and which is so important to establishing something as a fact, rather than a guess or estimate.

And for the most part, the guesses and estimates seem to be almost groundless - taken from the air, so to speak. They are often backed by a never ending regression of guesses upon which other guesses are made - usually back to guesses about whether some of the stuff written about gods in the various holy books actually constitutes ancient guesses or not.

So the original question I asked: Why not simply guess a god who does not have a vengeful disposition -- a need to be adored -- a set of "thou must" and "thou mustn't?"

Truly -- why not simply guess a god from whom (or if Husker is correct, for whom) salvation is necessary?

I am an agnostic -- and I freely acknowledge that I do not know if a God (or gods) exists (exist). But if I were to make a guess about a GOD -- particularly a GOD I would want to acknowledge in capital letters -- I certainly wouldn't imbue that GOD with some of the petty psychological traits you both seem so comfortable with in your god.

If I were to guess there is a GOD -- why guess that the god is jealous, vengeful, easily offended, and retributive?

Why not guess that there is no need to be "saved" from the GOD or for the GOD -- making discussion of the initial topic of this thread academic?

Why not?

As Husker noted, you are free to guess anything you want!

Nice thoughts max...actually, I thought that was great how you turned that around. I am a student of world religions, but not a theist. I believe in the self as the guide to life, but I am not an atheist, and not agnostic either (funny, 'agnostic' = 'a gnostic'). I believe in living morally, but I do not accept the concept of sin, at least not in a religious context. I look forward to reading more in this thread.

That's the wonder of "Faith"

frank: If god were indeed, "a man made creation" I would agree with you.

Other things I would wish for:

That snow was french onion dip...
That the sky was orange instead of blue....
That my bichon frise would move his bowels and create gold bullion...

Please don't be alarmed, I don't spend much time wishing for these things, because I realize the futility of those wishes.

God, through the scriptures and the Holy Spirit reveals himself to man, and that is all the proof necessary for me. I regret that I am unable to assist you and provide the concrete evidence that you request, that's just the way it is.

I don't make the rules, good buddy!

Agreed