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Gee, Craven, does that mean you're not going to spend your life going to visit Incan villages in South America to explain that the sun god is bunk? Maybe, maliagar, will go on a mission from god to spread the 'word.' c.i.

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maliagar wrote:

Craven de Kere wrote:
The fact that almost all religions grant humans exactly what they want is indicative of its origins.

Too simplistic. Religions do not "grant them what they want". They help define (1) what is the deepest human desire, and (2) they show a way of reaching that goal... provided that one lives a life that is consistent with that end. And living a consistent life is not easy, for it usually involves some form of renunciation, self-denial, and a lot of other things.

Of course a deeper question is: What is it that humans want? Why do they want it? Where did they get that longing from? What sorts of human experiences force us to face the deeper longings of existence? (such as near-death experiences...)

---

Actually, that is putting way too good a face on things, Maliagar - and the reasoning you are using is much closer to being "simplistic" that what Craven wrote.

MY GUESS: Religion developed because of fear. Early beings feared this remarkable place -- and they feared all the natural catastrophes that regularly occur.

Somehow, just like fire, farming, and the wheel came into being, people decided that there were mystical causes for all the trouble - gods, demons and the like. So they started to propitiate the gods -- and we've never stopped doing that.

Thanking the gods for the good stuff is merely an extension of the propitiation.

Actually, it makes lots of sense to me that people did that -- just as it makes lots of sense to me that people once supposed the Earth was stationary, flat as a pancake, and that the sun, moon, and stars circling it.

What amazes me is that there are people in this day and age who still feel that way.

Well -- for some, fear is a tough thing to deal with.

Know what I mean, Maliagar?

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Frank, Speaking for myself as a atheist, I don't fear death. I honestly feel it's all part of nature; to be born, live for a short period, then die. Nothing mystical about that; just fact. Most living things on this planet has a life span; some shorter than others. That man has the potential to live over 100 years is amazing. Unfortunately, many die in the womb or at birth. No gods, just nature. c.i.

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Gotcha, ci.

But back when early man was still trying to fathom why lighening happened -- there were undoubtedly lots of people who were very, very frightened.

When farming came -- and crops failed -- people were frightened.

MY GUESS (and only a guess) is that the fear caused them to suppose there were gods.

That was my point.

I was discussing what Maliagar brought up -- namely, what accounts for gods.

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Frank, Many people are afraid of lightening today, even with the knowledge of the why's. Crop failures are still a common occurance in this world, and I'm sure many cultures still perform some religious rituals to pray for a good crop. As for the 'creation' of gods, Ahkenoten (father of King Tut) created the sun god for Egypt. Part of his name includes the word "sun god." When Ahknoten died, his wife Nefertiti got rid of the 'sun god' for the people of Egypt. c.i.

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Quote:

"maliagar"
If you haven't noticed, religion is not pathetic to me (duh!). Therefore, since you're the one calling it "pathetic", you're the one to explain why (DUH!!!). Unless, of course, you want me to provide evidence for YOUR beliefs as well...

Oh, you believe in something more as well. Your definitions of "reality" and "proof" are essential components of your creed. They are grounded in a particular metaphysics and epistemology. And your religion is so blind, acritical, and unquestioning that you don't even see these foundational building blocks of your "being-in-the-world" (faith). This has been said before, but it went unnoticed. Maybe you need to do some more reading.

ISA 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him
and he will bring justice to the nations.

ISA 42:2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.

ISA 42:16 I will lead the blind by ways they have not known,
along unfamiliar paths I will guide them;
I will turn the darkness into light before them
and make the rough places smooth.
These are the things I will do;
I will not forsake them.

ISA 42:17 But those who trust in idols,
who say to images, `You are our gods,'
will be turned back in utter shame.

ISA 42:18 "Hear, you deaf;
look, you blind, and see!

ISA 42:19 Who is blind but my servant,
and deaf like the messenger I send?
Who is blind like the one committed to me,
blind like the servant of the LORD?

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husker wrote:

ISA 42:2 He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets.

husker wrote:

Well maliagar - in my Christian faith... nor do I have to repent my sins and do a hail-mary to a priest that might be a pervert - cause he cannot have a normal sexual relationship with a woman, err or maybe he can but they only recruit the weakest? ... And please I don't need any rubish on your twisting the Scripture for your Catholic - exclusionistic purposes.

Hey, Husker:

If you think that recent (idiosyncratic) forms of U.S. evangelicalism have all the arguments against historic Christianity, you really need to study a bit.

This is not the place to discuss the historical, traditional, and Scriptural traits of the One Church. Our secularist-atheist friends would get bored, and we would be wasting energies that can be put to better use in this complicated world.

"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me." - Gospel according to Saint John 17:20-21

"Non pro his autem rogo tantum sed et pro eis qui credituri sunt per verbum eorum in me ut omnes unum sint sicut tu Pater in me et ego in te ut et ipsi in nobis unum sint ut mundus credat quia tu me misisti..." - Sanctus Iohannes 17:20-21

:wink:

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Man, that was the shortest hiatus on record.

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maliagar wrote:

"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me." - Gospel according to Saint John 17:20-21

"Non pro his autem rogo tantum sed et pro eis qui credituri sunt per verbum eorum in me ut omnes unum sint sicut tu Pater in me et ego in te ut et ipsi in nobis unum sint ut mundus credat quia tu me misisti..." - Sanctus Iohannes 17:20-21

:wink:

And the reason for posting a Latin version of this quote is what?

Do you suspect for some reason that Husker does not understand English -- but that he might Latin?

Oh, I forgot. You don't the guts to debate with me.

Well -- think about it anyway!

And if you ever get your spine straightened, respond to me about it. We'll discuss it along with all the other things you refuse to discuss.

Love ya, Maliagar.

Yer my favorite.

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"Non pro his autem" I assume this means he's a crappy driver. I figure if maliagar can truncate people's posts and take them out of context, so can I.

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cav, And you thought you haven't learned enigma. Wink

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Heh heh...

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Hey Sugar, take a walk on the wild side,
Said hey honey, take a walk on the wild side.
And the coloured girls go, doo dodoo

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All I have to say is that peanuts are god's gift to mankind (contrary to popular belief) and can be an incredibly powerful force against the evil alien zucchinis & cucumbers.

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thanks monger, all this time i thought it was alcohol

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Frank Apisa wrote:

MY GUESS: Religion developed because of fear. Early beings feared this remarkable place -- and they feared all the natural catastrophes that regularly occur.

It's not really a guess, more like a foregone conclusion. Humanity invented religion because they were afraid. They didn't understand nature so they invented gods to explain it. They didn't understand how the world worked, so sun gods rode across the heavens, gods of nature made the crops grow, gods of fertility made children... and you had to bow down to these gods in order to have good fortune. Man feared death so his religions created a life after death and a belief that you'd see all your loved ones again after you died. Man feared being alone so his religions invented a caring, loving deity that watches out for him and grants wishes.

Unfortunately, as man has learned more about the world around him, his gods have moved into the realm of the mysterious. We don't pray to the sun anymore, we know it's a natural phenomenon. Now we pray to invisible, mystical deities which hide in the shadows because we've shown the light of reason and intelligence everywhere else. And as we find more, they go deeper into hiding to explain why we simply can't find any rational, logical evidence for them.

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And all of a sudden, all the miracles of the bible disappeared. That should tell us 'something.' Wink

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