Canada at War: Dr. Jekyll Becomes Mr. Hyde

Asherman wrote:

Not to mention that everyone south of the Canadian border are imperialistic warmongers our to subjugate the world. Afghanistan and Iraq today, Canada tomorrow. We can not, and will not allow a nation of saintly pacifists to exist on our northern border. It seems that some Canadian, or at least ExPat Americans fleeing from the overwhelming oppression, have finally discovered that they never needed any defences against the Soviets. Of course, there is no danger that radical Islamic terrorists would target Dawson. There are no radical Islamic terrorists, that's just wicked American fiction justifying world conquest and the suppression of freedom everywhere on earth. Oh well ....

I would be interested to hear whether or not you believe the US has any ownership whatsoever in that hate that is directed toward them....by either Islamic fundamentalists, the French, the Germans, select Canadians or otherwise. Anti-Americanism is not an Islamic phenomenon.

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No, I don't think we've done anything to deserve the hate that is so often levied against us. We tend to be brash, over confident and convinced that the world's peoples truly would like to live the American life. We are usually the first to come to the aid of people in distress, and our generosity is almost limitless. We broke the stalemate against Germany in 1918, and provided the logistics to keep Hitler from conquering Britain and the Soviet Union, long before we were involved personally. After the war, we paid dearly to rebuild Europe, and to prevent the Soviet Union from swallowing all of Europe up into its empire of slavery. We forgave you your debts, and asked very little in return.

As to why the radical Islamic movement focuses its hatred on the United States isn't hard to understand. If they can defeat the United States, the rest of Western Civilization is a piece of cake. Americans are just the representative of an humanistic, materialist civilization dedicated to pluralism. We are all infidels, and agents of Satan that, with God's help, they will either convert, or exterminate. Why is it that Europeans would rather take the side of the enemy than their proven friend? Would you rather live in an "American style" world, or in the sort of world that exists in Iran and that once existed in Afghanistan? Puzzling, isn't it?

Oh well ... we'll pull your chestnuts out of the fire ... again, and you'll have even more reason to resent and hate us for saving your sorry asses.

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No, your final statement is enough for me, and millions of others around the globe.

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Quote:

No, I don't think we've done anything to deserve the hate that is so often levied against us.

Wrongo. We prop up the governments who steal the natural resources - oil - from the populace. It is roughly akin to buying stolen stereos out of a car, and just not caring, and not expecting people to get mad about it.

Cycloptichorn

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Which woudl certainly include ensuring certain populations remain impoverished while American multinationals reap billions.

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I'm sorry that the world is not perfect and to your liking. Sometimes, one must ally themselves with folks they may in other situations despise. After all, we managed to choke back our suspicions and dislike of the Communists long enough to defeat the common enemy. We support those who are willing to work with us, and against those who hate us. Pakistan is hardly our bosom buddy, but maintaining the current government is in everybody's interest. Politics, especially international politics isn't for idealists. One chooses temporary allies not for who or what they are, but for how they fit into the larger picture. That certainly doesn't mean we like or approve of them, only that we need them for the nonce.

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I suppose their are no poor people in Canada? The Inuits most be rolling in cash, reaping the benefits of the natural resources Canada exports.

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That certainly doesn't mean we like or approve of them, only that we need them for the nonce.

Sure, but there are consequences to every action you take, and one of the consequences is that allying with bad governments makes their people hate you as much as the bad governments themselves.

The law of Unintended Consequences is kicking us in the ass right now, because we didn't care about the nature of our allies; we 'needed them' then...

Cycloptichorn

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Asherman wrote:

One chooses temporary allies not for who or what they are, but for how they fit into the larger picture.

Sometimes the long-term view has to be part of the larger picture.

Regrettably, that's been neglected by some countries/governments over the years.

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Quote:

Sometimes the long-term view has to be part of the larger picture. Regrettably, that's been neglected by some countries/governments over the years.

It is the long-term view that analysts, policy makers, and diplomats strive to take. Unfortunately, we can never be certain where current trends and events will REALLY end up. Decisions are necessarily made without full and conclusive knowledge of the problem(s).

Cycloptichorn,

Then you believe we shouldn't have allied ourselves with the Soviets during WWII? Who exactly is deserving of our support in Southern Asia today? Should we work against those governments that support us, or should we instead ally ourselves with the radical leaders of the masses who are determined to destroy us? Which of the "good" European governments have we enslaved? There are no purely good men, especially not in politics ... so which national politicians are virtuous enough for you to approve of? Now Bin Laden is a Man of the People for many in Southern Asia, do you propose that we join forces with him to overthrow governments who aren't radical enough for his tastes?

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McGentrix wrote:

I suppose their are no poor people in Canada? The Inuits most be rolling in cash, reaping the benefits of the natural resources Canada exports.

But I was talking about the American multi-nationals that exploit the resources of other nations and contributing to both the poverty and pollution of that nation.
....But you know the response of this one McG.
We treat our natives the same way as America treats theirs....ensuring they remain pitiful, impoverished and addicted to some form of substance.

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candidone1 wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
I suppose their are no poor people in Canada? The Inuits most be rolling in cash, reaping the benefits of the natural resources Canada exports.

But I was talking about the American multi-nationals that exploit the resources of other nations and contributing to both the poverty and pollution of that nation.
....But you know the response of this one McG.
We treat our natives the same way as America treats theirs....ensuring they remain pitiful, impoverished and addicted to some form of substance.

So, Amercan Multi-national companies should stop doing business with Canada because of the way the inhumane government there keeps certain populations impoverished?

Are we wrong to support the Canadian government and call them an ally? (I hope not, I like Canada a lot and is one of my favorite vacation destinations.)

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Quote:

Then you believe we shouldn't have allied ourselves with the Soviets during WWII?

What is it with you old folks and the habit of comparing every situation to WW2, a highly irregular situation and not at all representative of the average yearly actions of our government?

There is a certain 'enemy of my enemy' mentality during warfare; but that isn't analogous to our alliances with ME despots and tyrants, because we aren't allying with them for defense or containment of an enemy, but for material gain - oil. Big difference.

Noone forced us to make strategic alliances with bad people. We could have taken the high road and refused to do business with those who treat their populaces so poorly. But we didn't, and now we are reaping the reward for doing business with dogs; namely, waking up with fleas biting us all over.

To say that the US has no responsibility whatsoever for opinions of the US is somewhat ridiuclous, yaknow.

Cycloptichorn

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Asherman how are you and yours?

I’m surprised at the level of rancor, perhaps there’s a history I’m unaware of.

I see the thread has evolved from Canada's increasing involvement in Afghanistan (throwing good money after bad) to a more generalized discussion on foreign policy.

Who ya gonna ally with? What's in ya national interest? When ya gonna send in the troops? Where can a nation state get a little love? How ya gonna know the right thing to do for the long term? Why does we got enemies, was it something I said?

How far back do we have to go before gratitude for friendly acts become historical niceties? Is gratitude for France's essential part in the birth of the USA now a matter for scholars and history buffs? Was it canceled out by WWI and WWII or are they now ancient history? Do the French troops in Afghanistan balance out the debt for the world wars? Do we base our alliances on past debts, current needs, or future hopes?

Is it in our national interest to ensure the flow of strategic materials into the United States? How far are we willing to go to do so when there might be alternative technologies that will in the long term suit our purposes better?
Is there a balance between strategic needs and alliances were we trade off good will for one or put material needs to maintain an alliance?

Most people think war is a pretty bad thing but at times necessary.
The post mortems of most modern wars, given the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, indicates that many of them were not necessary. How many times do we have to be reminded of Neville Chamberlain or the War of 1812* before we learn the lessons? (Seemingly forever but there ya go)
What tests or checks are in place to prevent where possible unnecessary wars? What mechanism exists to remedy an unnecessary war mistakenly entered into? Is it enough to say Pottery Barn rules?

Since the end of WWII an alphabet soup of organizations has arisen where one nation state can seek redress against another. What circumstances exist that would cause a nation state to ignore such an organization? Given that post mortems of WWI often point international agreements as an exacerbating factor in driving Europe to war should any nation state commit itself to the use of military force before the fact?

Emerich De Vattel wrote The Law of Nations in 1758 have any of its principles stood the test of 248 years or is the long term still a darkened mirror. Bertolt Brecht had a lyric that said “Sink down in the slime, embrace the butcher but change the world it needs it”. Is that long term thinking?

What nation hasn’t done something to piss off somebody?
Western nations (including the US) have successfully practiced aggressive war against weaker nations as well as minority populations within their borders. In the third world the pattern is the same writ smaller.
Did Gavrilo Princip gun down Fredinand just because he disliked the curly moustache? Does admitting responsibility for an action mean acceptance of responsibility for the reaction?
After 9/11/01 a poll in Indonesia show that over 80% of the population viewed the United States favorably. After the invasion of Iraq the favorable rating had dropped to the teens. How much correlation does there have to be before we can suspect causation?

But what of Canada?

* “James Madison” by Garry Willis, Time Books. I found some parallels between 1812 and today.

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Well, Hellooooooo Buzzcook. Its been quite awhile sense we've "seen" you. Hows the restaurnt biz these days. It seems like I remember you giving some serious thought to opening your own place. Natalie as been sick a lot this last year. First she spent something like 3 months and several surgeries for a bad intestinal infection, and then she came down with Spinal Minengitis. She's making a remarkable recovery, but the medical bills are ruinous (no insurance and far too rich for any debt relief program). My hearing is mostly gone now, but I'm getting a lot of painting done in the studio.

My old computer died and took with it my address book. E-mail me. My address is still the same.

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Asherman wrote:

Well, Hellooooooo Buzzcook. Its been quite awhile sense we've "seen" you. Hows the restaurnt biz these days. It seems like I remember you giving some serious thought to opening your own place. Natalie as been sick a lot this last year. First she spent something like 3 months and several surgeries for a bad intestinal infection, and then she came down with Spinal Minengitis. She's making a remarkable recovery, but the medical bills are ruinous (no insurance and far too rich for any debt relief program). My hearing is mostly gone now, but I'm getting a lot of painting done in the studio.

My old computer died and took with it my address book. E-mail me. My address is still the same.

Not totally my business Ash, but I had spinal meningitis back in 2000.
Worst thing to ever happen to me.
I wish her the best.

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McGentrix wrote:

candidone1 wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
I suppose their are no poor people in Canada? The Inuits most be rolling in cash, reaping the benefits of the natural resources Canada exports.

But I was talking about the American multi-nationals that exploit the resources of other nations and contributing to both the poverty and pollution of that nation.
....But you know the response of this one McG.
We treat our natives the same way as America treats theirs....ensuring they remain pitiful, impoverished and addicted to some form of substance.

So, Amercan Multi-national companies should stop doing business with Canada because of the way the inhumane government there keeps certain populations impoverished?

Are we wrong to support the Canadian government and call them an ally? (I hope not, I like Canada a lot and is one of my favorite vacation destinations.)

It's not the presence of American multi-nationals that ensures our first nations populations remain impoverished. There is a long and dark history within both Canada and the United States regarding their treatment of their native populations.
If you wish to compare the harmful effects of actions from American multi-nationals to anything Canada has done, go ahead. It will only serve to validate my argument.

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Asherman wrote:

No, I don't think we've done anything to deserve the hate that is so often levied against us. We tend to be brash, over confident and convinced that the world's peoples truly would like to live the American life. We are usually the first to come to the aid of people in distress, and our generosity is almost limitless. We broke the stalemate against Germany in 1918, and provided the logistics to keep Hitler from conquering Britain and the Soviet Union, long before we were involved personally. After the war, we paid dearly to rebuild Europe, and to prevent the Soviet Union from swallowing all of Europe up into its empire of slavery. We forgave you your debts, and asked very little in return.

As to why the radical Islamic movement focuses its hatred on the United States isn't hard to understand. If they can defeat the United States, the rest of Western Civilization is a piece of cake. Americans are just the representative of an humanistic, materialist civilization dedicated to pluralism. We are all infidels, and agents of Satan that, with God's help, they will either convert, or exterminate. Why is it that Europeans would rather take the side of the enemy than their proven friend? Would you rather live in an "American style" world, or in the sort of world that exists in Iran and that once existed in Afghanistan? Puzzling, isn't it?

Oh well ... we'll pull your chestnuts out of the fire ... again, and you'll have even more reason to resent and hate us for saving your sorry asses.

Ha...ha...ha...that's quite funny. The sad part is you probably believe that propagandistic rhetoric. With a little cognitive and syllogistic reasoning, we can identify some of the reasons why the US is hated by Islam. The common fallacious statement is, "they hate us because of our freedoms" or the way we live. This is sheer and utter excreta of the bovine variety.

Sure, "we" want to live in an American style world, but not everyone would endeavor to live that way. Would you care to live in an Islamist type world? I think not. Hypocrite seems a fitting term for America lately. How about those democratic elections in Palestine? Though, it didn't turn out the way the Zionists and Bushco liked. Now, the people of Palestine are paying for their democratic decision by facing starvation, compliments of your friendly neighborhood Zionists.

You see, the main reason why the US is so hated by any Muslim or Islamic extremists is quite simple. The US supports Israel. Monetarily and militarily. In fact, take a look at their military arsenal, and you will see that their helicopters, fighter jets, assault rifles, tanks and so on, are all American made. Don't forget those cluster bombs that Bush had to rush over to Israel during the last episode with the Hezbollah. But since the US is Israel's ally, naturally, the US becomes the Islamic extremists' enemy.

No other country in the history of the UN has violated more UN resolutions than Israel. Anytime the UN moves to enforce the resolutions, the US vetoes them every time. Israel has never signed the NPT, despite the fact they possess close to 400 nuclear weapons. And guess what most of the resolutions were in response to? Israel's atrocities against the Palestinians or Lebanon perhaps?

THIS is why any "terrorist" or "extremists" hate the US. Not only because they attempt to force their ideologies onto a race of people who do not want it, they support their enemy which occupies land stolen from their people. That's not touching the actions of the Israeli terrorist groups that enacted it all back in 1948. The Stern Gang, Irgun, and Haganah. Not to mention the modern day Kach, which ironically, has members in the IDF.

But all of this is swept under the rug. No matter what they do, the onslaught against the Palestinian people continues. They elected Hamas because he is willing to fight for his people against those who will oppress them. Simple.

There is only one who can save the world, and it certainly isn't the USA. America needs to quit playing God. God gave everyone freedom of choice. The last time I checked, America was dishing out their version of "freedom" with a side order of M-16 fries and DU flavored sauce.

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Isreal is THEIR EXCUSE, not reason for their anti American rhetoric. How many times has the US held back Isreal from attacking Iraq, Iran et al.. in the past?

You position is simplistic and illogical.

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woiyo wrote:

Isreal is THEIR EXCUSE, not reason for their anti American rhetoric. How many times has the US held back Isreal from attacking Iraq, Iran et al.. in the past?

You position is simplistic and illogical.

Ha...ha...ha... "you position" ?

Sure, for the American side, Israel can be used as their excuse to engage in acts of war for the Zionist cause. But there's more to it than just an "excuse" . Have you forgotten the power of the Zionist lobbyists in America? I'm sure their friends at AIPAC and the ADL have some pull with Bushco (or any other president that may follow). Let's not forget Rove and his following of fundamentalist rabid slavering sheeple, who support Israel to ensure Israel is eventually destroyed so they can partake of their "rapture". Pass that offering plate! Amen.

It still doesn't negate the fact that America is hated because they support Israel. Let's see....billions of aid per year, loans forgiven so they don't need repayment , and...oh yes...the Zionists can loan the money, back to the Federal reserve, and charge interest. Wow, what a deal. Maybe I should convert to a Zionist and join the leaches club of Israel.

Let's not forget all those "toy" tanks, M-16 "water guns", and Apache helicopters that are donated to Israel's cause of "defending itself", even though they are the ones occupying someone else's land. It's always a relief to know that most Israeli Prime Ministers were previously a member of one of the Israeli terrorist groups that killed British and Palestinians back in 1948. I'm sure everyone sleeps much more soundly over there knowing they are in good and honest hands.

Oh... and I suppose trying to cram democracy down every country's throat in the middle east is another bone of contention the Islamic extremists may have. Some people just don't appreciate invasion of privacy, or interference tactics. Maybe that's why Israel is constructing that big tall wall of a fence. They are hopeful that 'good fences make good neighbors'?

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Canada at War: Dr. Jekyll Becomes Mr. Hyde

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