America: Melting Pot or tossed salad?

Atavistic, can you translate that quote into what you think it means?

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Chai Tea wrote:

OMG - Atavistic quoted Pat Buchanan!!

I rest my case.

Scoff all you want, your utopian outlook of the world has been proven wrong time and time again. Here's another one for you, since Pat gets you so excited:

"When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, college students stood beside sharecroppers' sons to enlist. These men were not volunteering to defend abstract ideas. For democracy had not been attacked. Equality was not attacked. America was attacked. They were enlisting to fight the Japanese for what they had done to our country and countrymen. Many had likely never read Jefferson, Hamilton, or Madison, and some would die never having read them. Yet, whether they had been taught or not, or learned or had not, the ideals and principles of which President Bush spoke in his first inaugural(that we are bound by ideals alone), they were patriots united by nationality. They were Americans, and they fought, bled, and died as Americans, no matter what they believed."

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littlek wrote:

Fishin - what cities/enclaves? I'd like to do some research.

From wiki (on a princeton website):
Quote:
In the social sciences, assimilation is the process of integration whereby immigrants, or other minority groups, are "absorbed" into a generally larger community. This presumes a loss of all characteristics which make the newcomers different. A region where assimilation is occurring is sometimes referred to as a "melting pot".

I disagree with the presumption in their definition. Assimilation doesn't mean a loss of the charactistics - it means IMO, that those very charateristics are also melded into the whole.

from Dictionary.com:
4. Sociology. the merging of cultural traits from previously distinct cultural groups, not involving biological amalgamation.

n 1: the state of being assimilated; people of different backgrounds come to see themselves as part of a larger national family 2: the social process of absorbing one cultural group into harmony with another

As far as which cities/enclaves - look around greater Boston. Why are distinct ethinc groups settling in Brockton, Lowell, Randolph, Quincy, Framingham, New Bedford, Peabody, etc.. and not mixing/interacting at all? In previous generations these groups would have all settled in different areas within Boston itself (and maybe Lowell and Springfield) and they would have run into each oither all the time.

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Perhaps every discussion on a2k should be prefaced with working definitions! I think many of the arguments really come down to a different understanding of the semantics involved.

That is basically my working definition after many years in college and high school focusing on this issue and now currently focusing on it again!

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What about the North End? It was Irish until the Italians started coming and the Irish got uppity and left. It is STILL Itlian! After how long? Italian is spoken on the street. This started longer ago than the 70s for sure! And Charlestown was largely Irish for ages. I don't think this is a new phenomena at all.

Here's a list of terms from one resource on the subject:
http://www.safarix.com/0205457630/gloss01

I am not suggesting that we have a pluralistic society with everyone remaining separate with, what am I saying is that I would hate to see this country become all vanilla all the time.

But, mostly, I take issue with the referencing of our founding fathers and what many now think their views were. I am no historian, I am not a debater or a philosopher. But, I do have a pretty rich education in the cultural history of the US from a non-male-anglo side of the spectrum.

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littlek wrote:

It's not an oxymoron! We have a common trait - our diversity! I am italian, scottish, german, irish. I am diverse myself and I am a cohesive unit (mostly).

No you are an American. My ancestors are from Ireland and England, but I am an American. My ancestors came here with the intention of being Americans. Yes we all have our immigrant history in common, but more importantly, we all were once immigrants who are now Americans. Could you imagine if no new immigrants learned the language or adopted the culture? The place would be complete anarchy.

Quote:

Atavistic, can you translate that quote into what you think it means?

It means that democracy was an afterthought. The revolutionary generation did not go to war with Britain because they wanted democracy. They wanted their independence. In fact, many of our founders loathed democracy. They saw themselves as sharing a common heritage, language, and culture, and they simply wanted their independence from England.

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I feel I am american of scottish, irish, italian, german decent. I am in touch with relatives in italy. I have been there to see them.

So, why can't we be americans who love and keep our ethnic culture what ever that culture is? Are big groups of people actively saying that they want to live here, but don't want the citizenship? Do they declare that they don't want to vote (uninterested in voting is another story). Are they demanding to cecede from the union?

My grandparents were fiercely proud to be american, but they maintained the italian language their parents spoke, they make italian food, my aunts and uncles still do as well. They are all upstanding citizens, teachers, vetinarians, tax-payers and voters. I think that's great.

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George Washington urged that immigrants not be allowed to congregate, but be spread out among the people:

"The policy of immigration taking place in a body may be much questioned; for, by so doing, they retain the language, habits, and principles (good or bad) which they bring with them. Whereas by an intermixture with our people, they or their descendants get assimilated to our customs and laws: in a word soon become one people."

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littlek wrote:

I feel I am american of scottish, irish, italian, german decent. I am in touch with relatives in italy. I have been there to see them.

So, why can't we be americans who love and keep our ethnic culture what ever that culture is? Are big groups of people actively saying that they want to live here, but don't want the citizenship? Do they declare that they don't want to vote (uninterested in voting is another story). Are they demanding to cecede from the union?

My grandparents were fiercely proud to be american, but they maintained the italian language their parents spoke, they make italian food, my aunts and uncles still do as well. They are all upstanding citizens, teachers, vetinarians, tax-payers and voters. I think that's great.

So if you had to choose sides, which would you choose? Many Americans of Italian descent fought against Italy in WW2. The same with Germans. These men were no longer Germans or Italians. I've met immigrants who have no desire to become Americans. They are simply here to make money and send it home to their family. Making Italian food does not make you Italian, I see no problem with that. As far as the language, I think it is imperative that immigrants learn and use English. If they want to speak Italian in private, fine, as long as they teach their kids English. For me, I would feel ridiculous trying to pass myself off as an Irishman. My ancestors came here over a hundred years ago, and I, nor my parents, or grandparents have any real connection with Irish culture. I am not ashamed of my heritage, but I am an American through and through.

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littlek wrote:

What about the North End? It was Irish until the Italians started coming and the Irish got uppity and left. It is STILL Itlian! After how long? Italian is spoken on the street. This started longer ago than the 70s for sure! And Charlestown was largely Irish for ages. I don't think this is a new phenomena at all.

Here's a list of terms from one resource on the subject:
http://www.safarix.com/0205457630/gloss01

I am not suggesting that we have a pluralistic society with everyone remaining separate with, what am I saying is that I would hate to see this country become all vanilla all the time.

What was Charlestown 50 years ago? What's it becoming now? (Condos! lol). It shifts over time. Do people in the North End send their kids to school where classes are taught in Italian? Can they take the MCAS in Italian? I don't think anyone is suggesting that people shouldn't be bi- or multi-lingual. That's not the same as having Spanish, Portugesse or Italian as their only language.

A year or so back I asked a similar question about the whole melting pot concept and got many of the same answers that have been posted here. (I'll have to see if I can find it)

What is being ignored in the "salad" concept, IMO, though is that previous generations and groups came here with the intention of being Americans. They were here to stay.

That isn't the case for many today. In that earlier thread there were several articles posted referencing people and representatives of groups that very clearly stated that they came here to earn a living so that they could go back to their native country - taking their family with them - and retire. They had no desire to become involved with anything/anyone because they see themselves as only being here temporarily.

I don't think many people have a problem with a "salad" concept as long as the cucumbers don't get up and decide to climb out of the salad and leave just as everyone else is sitting down to eat. Razz

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Hogwash!

The immigration debate has always been the same, and the anti-Immigrant nativists have always made the same arguments. Now people who are continuing an anti-immigrant campaign that has lasted over 100 years are claiming that somehow their hatred of today's immigrants is somehow different than before.

Your argument is not new. It has been the same tire Nativist rant from 100 years ago. The idea is that America belongs to White Protestant Europeans and admitting too many aliens who didn't meet this category would dilute the purity of the American (White Protestant) race.

Latinos assimilate fine, just like the immigrants before them. The people who received amnesty in 1986 and are now doctors and lawyers show this. Just like immigrants before them, the second and third generation Hispanic immigrant now know English with many gaining education and success.

You are now making the same accusations against Latinos that they made against the Chinese, Catholics and Jews. The Chinese exclusion act, racial quota laws and doubts whether a Catholoic could be president were all parts of this.

Assimilation doesn't mean forcing everyone to be white and Protestant. Some of the best parts of America come from elsewhere-- Jazz and cappucino for example.

Do you take exception to the Orthodox Jewish communities in New YorkCity (and elsewhere)?

We have fought very hard in this country to live up to the idea of "Liberty and Justice for all". This means defending the rights of people to be different and trusting that each part will add to the whole. History, and the current richness of our culture, shows that this has been the right policy.

Multiculturalism is the best of America.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Hogwash!

The immigration debate has always been the same, and the anti-Immigrant nativists have always made the same arguments. Now people who are continuing an anti-immigrant campaign that has lasted over 100 years are claiming that somehow their hatred of today's immigrants is somehow different than before.

Your argument is not new. It has been the same tire Nativist rant from 100 years ago. The idea is that America belongs to White Protestant Europeans and admitting too many aliens who didn't meet this category would dilute the purity of the American (White Protestant) race.

Latinos assimilate fine, just like the immigrants before them. The people who received amnesty in 1986 and are now doctors and lawyers show this. Just like immigrants before them, the second and third generation Hispanic immigrant now know English with many gaining education and success.

You are now making the same accusations against Latinos that they made against the Chinese, Catholics and Jews. The Chinese exclusion act, racial quota laws and doubts whether a Catholoic could be president were all parts of this.

Assimilation doesn't mean forcing everyone to be white and Protestant. Some of the best parts of America come from elsewhere-- Jazz and cappucino for example.

Do you take exception to the Orthodox Jewish communities in New YorkCity (and elsewhere)?

We have fought very hard in this country to live up to the idea of "Liberty and Justice for all". This means defending the rights of people to be different and trusting that each part will add to the whole. History, and the current richness of our culture, shows that this has been the right policy.

Multiculturalism is the best of America.

Did you just step through a time warp?? No one suggested anything that you've complained about here. Who said anyone should be forced to be white or protestant? Maybe you are just in the wrong thread.

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Fishin'

I am reacting to your claim that things changed "since the 70's" and I take exception to the implication that Hispanic immigrants are different to the European immigrants that I (and probably you) descend from.

Your arguments against today's immigrants are very much the same as the anti-immigrant arguments of the past.

Todays immigrants are the same as yesterdays immigrants and todays Nativists are the same as yesterdays Nativists.

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I wrote a near-tome on all this, started to add tangents, and decided to shelve it 'til the morrow. I saved the near-tome, to give it more shape and definition! Or not.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Fishin'

I am reacting to your claim that things changed "since the 70's" and I take exception to the implication that Hispanic immigrants are different to the European immigrants that I (and probably you) descend from.

Your arguments against today's immigrants are very much the same as the anti-immigrant arguments of the past.

Todays immigrants are the same as yesterdays immigrants and todays Nativists are the same as yesterdays Nativists.

Up until at least the 70s the "melting pot" concept was what was taught in public schools and was a common description used across the country. Since then it seems to be going (or has already gone...) away. You can take offense to that if you'd like but it's a fact. Sometimes the truth hurts.

As far as your other statements - Nonsense. Don't put things in my statements that I never said or implied. You can make up all the bullsh!t you'd like but don't attribute it to me. For starters, not once have I suggested that anyone should be forced to be white nor protestant.

I also haven't said anything about anyone not coming here nor being allowed to some here so your claims that I an anti-immigration are also full of crap. I couldn't care less who comes to this country. What I DO expect is that if they come here and expect those of us that are already here to accept them and what they bring to the table then they had better plan on being here for the long haul. I don't see any reason for culture to change and accept someone that has already decided that they are leaving when they've gotten everything they can get.

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fishin:

Quote:

...they had better plan on being here for the long haul. I don't see any reason for culture to change and accept someone that has already decided that they are leaving when they've gotten everything they can get.

If you're suggesting that Mexican immigrants don't plan on being here "for the long haul", and that they will leave when they get "everything they can get", where are you getting that from?

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snood wrote:

fishin:

Quote:
...they had better plan on being here for the long haul. I don't see any reason for culture to change and accept someone that has already decided that they are leaving when they've gotten everything they can get.

If you're suggesting that Mexican immigrants don't plan on being here "for the long haul", and that they will leave when they get "everything they can get", where are you getting that from?

Not all - some certainly but not all. And it isn't restricted to Mexicans either (There are a lot of Brazilians it in this area for example).

I got that from one of the local immigrant groups here that ran several lengthy articles quoting serveral of their members who stated that that was exactly what they were doing. They had come to MA (legally) to work and planned on going back to their native country once they had worked enough quarters to qualify for Social Security retirement benefits. Other's had posted similar articles in the previous thread that I mentioned earlier. (As I recall you participated in that thread as well.)

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The immigrant debate revolves around whether immigrants, who have already invested quite a bit to work and raise families here can become citizens.

Immigrants are nothing like the anti-immigrant folks portray. I know this personally.

Most of the people here want to be Americans. That's the whole argument. They don't just want to be here "for the long haul"-- They want to be citizens.

No one I know doesn't want to learn English (although it is difficult for some). People are insistant that their kids learn English and there are very few 2nd generation immigrants who aren't fluent in English.

The fact that immigrants will retain some of their culture is nothing new. Jews were perfectly able to become Americans while remaining Jewish. Catholics remained Catholic. In parts of Pennsyvania they dance the Polka, Many Greeks still go to churches where they only speak Greek.

People are people. The Hispanic immigrants of today are the same as the immigrants of yesterday.

They want to be Americans and they will, as immigrants have in the past, weave their own identities into the American culture.

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One of the previous threads on this same topic:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=686

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fishin wrote:

snood wrote:
fishin:

Quote:
...they had better plan on being here for the long haul. I don't see any reason for culture to change and accept someone that has already decided that they are leaving when they've gotten everything they can get.

If you're suggesting that Mexican immigrants don't plan on being here "for the long haul", and that they will leave when they get "everything they can get", where are you getting that from?

Not all - some certainly but not all. And it isn't restricted to Mexicans either (There are a lot of Brazilians it in this area for example).

I got that from one of the local immigrant groups here that ran several lengthy articles quoting serveral of their members who stated that that was exactly what they were doing. They had come to MA (legally) to work and planned on going back to their native country once they had worked enough quarters to qualify for Social Security retirement benefits. Other's had posted similar articles in the previous thread that I mentioned earlier. (As I recall you participated in that thread as well.)

If I did, I don't remember you and I having this exchange before, so I'm not sure why that's relevant.

But your comments about Mexicans and Brazilians sure sound bad to me.

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America: Melting Pot or tossed salad?

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