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Calling all 9/11 Conspiracy Nuts

 
 
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 12:20 pm
Not that I think you'll learn anything...

9/11 Debate: Loose Change Filmmakers vs. Popular Mechanics Editors of "Debunking 9/11 Myths"
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 3,822 • Replies: 65
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 12:40 pm
Did you actually read the transcript/listen? The makers of the video bring up some very good points; namely, that much of the 'disproving' done by the Popmech team relies on evidence that hasn't been released to the public, so there is no way to check the accuarcy of their claims.

They fall into the tactic of referring to 'conspiracy theories' when they cannot adequately explain the points asked by the other side...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 12:51 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Did you actually read the transcript/listen? The makers of the video bring up some very good points; namely, that much of the 'disproving' done by the Popmech team relies on evidence that hasn't been released to the public, so there is no way to check the accuarcy of their claims.

They fall into the tactic of referring to 'conspiracy theories' when they cannot adequately explain the points asked by the other side...

Cycloptichorn


As a matter of fact I did read and listen to it.

Do you have any specifcs you would like to discuss?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 12:55 pm
I didn't already mention the points that I thought were salient? Here I thought I did in my original post.

Also, how did you turn out in Football this weekend; I probably had the best week I'll have all season, sigh

Cycloptichorn
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 01:03 pm
You broadly stated "that much of the 'disproving' done by the Popmech team relies on evidence that hasn't been released to the public, so there is no way to check the accuarcy of their claims," I was wondering what parts of the disproving you disagreed with and exactly what parts of the "conspiracy theory' needed more disproving... they covered a lot of topics.



I did real good this week... even though I had one empty roster spot due to me being unavailable to set my roster after a trade... Tico is kind of pissed.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 01:13 pm
Haha, Tico talked plenty of trash beforehand, didn't he?

On topic, I was referring to things such as pictures of the plane hitting the Pentagon; pictures of the crashed plane in the field; and the 'black box' recordings, which to my knowldege have not been publicly released.

There also appear to be inconsistencies between the plane crashes (in either the Pentagon or the field) and the recorded history of what happens when planes crash into things at high speed.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 01:42 pm
On Topic:

I guess I would agree that there is a lot of information that has not been released/confirmed. However, listening to the mp3 of the debate (there is more on the mp3 than there are on the transcripts) I find that the answers given by the PopMech team, unconfirmed or not, to be much more thought out and logical than the Loose Change guys arguments. Heat colapsed the towers and the fires in the lobby were started by gas coming down the elevator shafts, or, a hijacking of planes, flown into buildings to cover up a controlled demolition, set up and carried out in secret, without one person involved ever spilling the beans or getting caught.

Throughout the clip, the loose change guys do exactly what the popmech guys accuse them of doing... raise many open ended questions but offer no actual evidence into their theories. Whenever the popmech guys offer their opinion of what happened based on the interviews that they conducted, all the loose change guys do is call them liars or simply say "That is false without backing it up with anything substantial.

I gotta admit... of all the people on this site, I never would have thought I would be debating you about this.


Off topic:

Yeah... but trash talking is half the fun.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 02:03 pm
Oh, I'm not one of those who thinks that Bushco cooked up an attack upon America. But that doesn't mean the official story is true, either, you see?

There are a lot of different directions that 9/11 could be taken, for political gain, depending on which way you want to go with it. And a lot of the 'conclusions' that I've seen over the last 5 years are based upon faulty methodology, ie, working backwards from the problems instead of forwards.

Then there are things like the 'explanation' for the fall of WTC 7, when it was admitted by Silverstein that firefighters 'pulled' the building. I have a hard time believing that the same team which 'explained' why the building fell all by itself could accurately 'explain' other occurances.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 03:16 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Oh, I'm not one of those who thinks that Bushco cooked up an attack upon America. But that doesn't mean the official story is true, either, you see?

There are a lot of different directions that 9/11 could be taken, for political gain, depending on which way you want to go with it. And a lot of the 'conclusions' that I've seen over the last 5 years are based upon faulty methodology, ie, working backwards from the problems instead of forwards.

Then there are things like the 'explanation' for the fall of WTC 7, when it was admitted by Silverstein that firefighters 'pulled' the building. I have a hard time believing that the same team which 'explained' why the building fell all by itself could accurately 'explain' other occurances.

Cycloptichorn


Yeah Lucky Larry. Smile

Quote:
Larry 'Lucky Larry' Silverstein

Date Published: 2006-09-06

You've got to be lucky to make $4 Billion killing on a 6-month investment of $124 Million

Larry Silverstein is the New York property tycoon who purchased the entire WTC complex just 6 months prior to the 9/11 attacks. That was the first time in its 33-year history the complex had EVER changed ownership.

Mr. Silverstein's first order of business as the new owner was to change the company responsible for the security of the complex. The new security company he hired was Securacom (now Stratasec). George W. Bush's brother, Marvin Bush, was on its board of directors, and Marvin's cousin, Wirt Walker III, was its CEO. According to public records, not only did Securacom provide electronic security for the World Trade Center, it also covered Dulles International Airport and United Airlines ' two key players in the 9/11 attacks.

The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for many years to the Bush family. KuwAm has been linked to the Bush family financially since the Gulf War. One of its principals and a member of the Kuwaiti royal family, Mishal Yousef Saud al Sabah, served on the board of Stratesec.

Now, consider: The members of a small cabal owned the WTC complex, controlled its electronic security, and also controlled the security not only for one of the airlines whose aircraft were hijacked on 9/11, but the airport from which they originated.

Another little 'coincidence' -- Mr. Silversten, who made a down-payment of $124 million on this $3.2 billion complex, promptly insured it for $7 Billion. Not only that, he covered the complex against 'terrorist attacks'.

Following the attacks, Silverstein filed TWO insurance claims for the maximum amount of the policy ($7B), based on the two -- in Silverstein's view -- separate attacks. The insurance company, Swiss Re, paid Mr. Silverstein $4.6 Billion - a princely return on a relatively paltry investment of $124 million.

There's more. You see, the World Trade Towers were not the real estate plum we are led to believe. From an economic standpoint, the trade center -- subsidized since its inception by the NY Port Authority -- has never functioned, nor was it intended to function, unprotected in the rough-and-tumble real estate marketplace. How could Silverstein Group have been ignorant of this?

The towers required some $200 million in renovations and improvements, most of which related to removal and replacement of building materials declared to be health hazards in the years since the towers were built. It was well-known by the city of New York that the WTC was an asbestos bombshell. For years, the Port Authority treated the building like an aging dinosaur, attempting on several occasions to get permits to demolish the building for liability reasons, but being turned down due the known asbestos problem. Further, it was well-known the only reason the building was still standing until 9/11 was because it was too costly to disassemble the twin towers floor by floor since the Port Authority was prohibited legally from demolishing the buildings.

The projected cost to disassemble the towers: $15 Billion. Just the scaffolding for the operation was estimated at $2.4 Billion!

In other words, the Twin Towers were condemned structures. How convenient that an unexpected 'terrorist' attack demolished the buildings completely.

WTC Building 7 was a part of the WTC complex, and covered under the same insurance policy. This 47-storey steel-framed structure, which was NOT struck by an aircraft, mysteriously collapsed 8 hours later that same day into its own footprint at freefall speed - exactly in the manner of the Twin Towers.

How could this have happened? Mr. Silverstein gave the world the answer when he slipped up during a PBS television interview a year later, on 9/11/2002:

"I remember getting a call from the...er...fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

As anyone who knows anything about construction can tell you, 'Pull' is common industry jargon for a controlled demolition.

One thing is for sure, the decision to 'pull' WTC 7 would have delighted many people. Especially because it has been reported that thousands of sensitive files relating to some of the biggest financial scams in history ' including Enron and WorldCom -- were stored in the offices of some of the building's tenants:


US Secret Service
NSA
CIA
IRS
BATF
SEC
NAIC Securities
Salomon Smith Barney
American Express Bank International
Standard Chartered Bank
Provident Financial Management
ITT Hartford Insurance Group
Federal Home Loan Bank


The Securities and Exchange Commission has not quantified the number of active cases in which substantial files were destroyed by the collapse of WTC 7. Reuters news service and the Los Angeles Times published reports estimating them at 3,000 to 4,000. They include the agency's major inquiry into the manner in which investment banks divvied up hot shares of initial public offerings during the high-tech boom. ..."Ongoing investigations at the New York SEC will be dramatically affected because so much of their work is paper-intensive," said Max Berger of New York's Bernstein Litowitz Berger & Grossmann. "This is a disaster for these cases."

Citigroup says some information that the committee is seeking [about WorldCom] was destroyed in the Sept. 11 terror attack on the World Trade Center. Salomon had offices in 7 World Trade Center. The bank says that back-up tapes of corporate emails from September 1998 through December 2000 were stored at the building and destroyed in the attack.

Inside WTC 7 was the US Secret Service's largest field office with more than 200 employees. "All the evidence that we stored at 7 World Trade, in all our cases, went down with the building," according to US Secret Service Special Agent David Curran.

What a neat, complete, and fortuitous turn of events was 9/11.

Incidentally, it's worth noting that one of Lucky Larry's closest friends ' a person with whom it's said he speaks almost daily by phone - is none other than former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

More on that cozy little relationship later...

Link
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 03:21 pm
Oh, and most people would say this was just pure luck, i think it was a miracle.

Yes, the most amazing miracle, did you know that only 1 israeli died in wtc attacks, considering that [The State of New York has 1,657,000 Jews, which makes them about 9.1% of the New York State population of 19 million] thousands worked in and around WTC/New York, it was a true miracle.

(It is known fact that 4000 Jews worked at the WTC in New York)



Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/22/nyregion/22NUMB.html

September 22, 2001

THE TALLY

Officials Say Number of Those Still Missing May Be Overstated

By ERIC LIPTON

City officials said yesterday that the number of people listed as missing and feared lost in the World Trade Center disaster, which had climbed as high as 6,333, could fall significantly because of problems with reports of missing people from foreign countries and other sources.

Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani said the reports of missing foreign citizens, which had helped increase the number of those listed as missing and perhaps dead by about 1,000 over the last three days, probably involved many people who had been counted twice or who in fact were neither working at nor visiting the twin towers.

"It's likely to go down," Mr. Giuliani said of the total. He added, "I don't think anybody knows yet if that number is going to go back down to 4,000 or 5,000 or it's going to remain at where it is when they all net out."

The city's official number of those feared lost in the attacks has been followed by the public with enormous concern, for many have regarded it as a responsible approximation of how great the final death toll could be. The importance of the number is all the greater, officials acknowledge, because of the real possibility that the destruction at the site of the towers was so complete as to make identifying all victims an impossibility.

Ultimately, then, the final count of the missing could become the count of the dead.

As a result, the chance that there could be double-counting or other confusions involving the city's numbers of the missing moved officials yesterday to urge caution in interpreting the daily accounting.

Just precisely how the city has been compiling its lists of the reported missing has been somewhat unclear from the first day after the disaster. Officials have, over time, created a kind of database of names and have resisted simply accepting reports of, in effect, lump sums of possible victims.

But names in the database have come from a variety of sources. Police Commissioner Bernard B. Kerik said that the city had compiled its list of the missing from the Red Cross, companies that had offices at the trade center and a number of police departments across the region. He said the multiple sources of reporting could have led to some duplication even beyond that involving foreign citizens.

"The numbers can change," Mr. Kerik said. "How much, we don't know at this point."

The same person could be counted once in the total provided by Cantor, and then again as reported by family members.

It has become clear, though, that the question of foreign citizens has been the most problematic in efforts to keep the city's count accurate. Over the last several days, the city's list of the missing became inflated by what officials said were missing persons reports from consulates and embassies for countries including India and Israel.

But interviews with many consulate officials yesterday suggested that the lists of people they were collecting varied widely in their usefulness. For example, the city had somehow received reports of many Israelis feared missing at the site, and President Bush in his address to the country on Thursday night mentioned that about 130 Israelis had died in the attacks.

But today, Alon Pinkas, Israel's consul general here, said that lists of the missing included reports from people who had called in because, for instance, relatives in New York had not returned their phone calls from Israel. There were, in fact, only three Israelis who had been confirmed as dead: two on the planes and another who had been visiting the towers on business and who was identified and buried.[/color]

In an effort to avoid further problems with the reports from foreign countries, Mr. Giuliani said the city had now created a separate list to deal with the names. He said that the new list, once it was sorted out, could come to include people who actually might be missing at the disaster site. But he and other officials indicated that that number was likely to be very small.

Indeed, Mr. Kerik said that the city's early inquiry into the newest 1,200 reports of foreigners perhaps missing had left him skeptical. One country, he said, had reported 56 people feared to be missing at the site. After checking, officials now believe that none, in fact, had been in the buildings.

Experts were not surprised by the difficulty of creating and maintaining a reliable list of people feared lost at the scene of the trade center attacks.

David E. Garratt, director of the emergency support team at the headquarters of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which is helping in the New York effort, said the challenges presented by the trade center disaster were, for him, unprecedented.

"When you are dealing with a building that has a large business community, a large number of foreign businesses and that is a tourist attraction where the tourists do not have to register by name, it is legitimately difficult to quickly and confidently establish a missing population," Mr. Garratt said.

To date, the city has confirmed 252 dead, of which 183 people have been identified. Of those 183, 39 of them are from the uniformed services, meaning firefighters, police officers and others.

But along with the dwindling confidence at the site that anyone will be found alive, there has been a growing awareness among rescuers and city officials of how hard it may well be to positively identify many of those who died in the collapses.

Any human remains, even if they are several parts from a single person, can be linked to a single person through DNA.

If the city has a sample of the victim's DNA on file, from a toothbrush or a comb, then it is nearly certain that it can link a body or body parts to a missing person.

The challenge is finding the body parts in what could be 1.5 million to 2 million tons of debris.

"You just have to assume there will be some gap in between the number of missing and the confirmed dead," said Barry Scheck, a professor of law at the Cardozo School of Law and an expert on DNA testing.

But even establishing a reliable rough figure for the missing seemed at least briefly elusive yesterday. The mayor, for one, seemed to send conflicting messages.

At one point, Mr. Giuliani predicted that the number of missing might not change significantly. But then he said that it could drop to perhaps as low as 4,000 or 5,000 people from its current 6,333.

0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 04:04 pm
Freedom4Free,

Do you know the difference between Jews and Israelis?

The stupidity behind your posts continues to astound me.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 04:13 pm
Quote:
Freedom4Free,

Do you know the difference between Jews and Israelis?

The stupidity behind your posts continues to astound me.


Err. they're both the same thing, 'gods chosen' hence the ' miracle ? Smile

99% of American Jews have dual nationality, their dedication is to Israel. They read the Torah.

Any other person living in Israel = goyim or sub-human.

Quote:
Zim-American Israeli Shipping Co. actively participated in the following events:
April 2, 2001

Virginia Governor Jim Gilmore (R) announces that Zim-American Israeli Shipping Co. will be relocating its US headquarters from the 16th floor of the World Trade Center in New York City to Norfolk, Virginia [Tenantwise, 10/03] - With this move, Zim-American Israeli Shipping Co., one of the world's largest international shipping organizations, has recognized the value of Virginia's central location and dynamic workforce,' says Governor Gilmore. [Virginia, 4/2/2001]

Entity Tags: Zim-American Israeli Shipping Co.
September 4, 2001: Israeli Company Moves Out of WTC

The Zim-American Israeli Shipping Co. moves their North American headquarters from the 16th floor of the WTC to Norfolk, Virginia, one week before the 9/11 attacks. The Israeli government owns 49 percent of the company. [Virginian-Pilot, 9/4/2001] Zim announced the move and its date six months earlier. [Virginian-Pilot, 4/3/2001] More than 200 workers had just been moved out; about ten are still in the building making final moving arrangements on 9/11, but escape. [Jerusalem Post, 9/13/2001; Journal of Commerce, 10/18/2001] The move leaves only one Israeli company, ClearForest, with 18 employees, in the WTC on 9/11. The four or five employees in the building at the time manage to escape. [Jerusalem Post, 9/13/2001] One year later, a Zim ship is impounded while attempting to ship Israeli military equipment to Iran; it is speculated that this is done with the knowledge of Israel. [Agence France-Presse, 3/29/2002]
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 04:25 pm
Is there any such thing as a person who believes that 9/11 was a government conspiracy who doesn't hold anti-Semitic views?
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 05:30 pm
It sure seems that way sometimes. The left and the lunnatics seldom find anything to criticise about radical Islam, yet are welling to believe the most outrageous things about our own government. Why condemn suicide bomberfs, when it is so much more "patriotic" to paint soldiers in the field as murderous torturers more akin to the SS than otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 05:32 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Is there any such thing as a person who believes that 9/11 was a government conspiracy who doesn't hold anti-Semitic views?


While I don't believe the government conspired to cause 9/11, I do believe that they are lying about what happened for political gain. It would fit the pattern that they have displayed, for sure. I guess you would label me one of your 'theorists.'

And I'm not Anti-Semitic, though I am anti-Zionist and a critic of Israel's actions. There is a clearly defined difference between the two.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 05:35 pm
freedom4free wrote:
Err. they're both the same thing, 'gods chosen' hence the ' miracle ?

99% of American Jews have dual nationality, their dedication is to Israel.


I have no idea where you got that crazy statistic. Maybe Israel declares people of Jewish descent as citizens, like Italy does for people of Italian descent-I don't know. But if you are trying to claim that 99% of Jewish Americans took out papers to get Israeli citizenship, you are plainly wrong.

The list of people who died in the World Trade Center contains many Jewish names. Read it sometime.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 05:50 pm
Asherman wrote:
It sure seems that way sometimes. The left and the lunnatics seldom find anything to criticise about radical Islam, yet are welling to believe the most outrageous things about our own government. Why condemn suicide bomberfs, when it is so much more "patriotic" to paint soldiers in the field as murderous torturers more akin to the SS than otherwise.


Asherman,

You want to paint the "left" with the clearly anti-Semitic rantings of a lunatic fringe.

This is equivalent to painting conservatives with the rants of neo-Nazi's.

I am solidly on the left. I citicize radical Islam. I condemn suicide bombers. The fact that I think the abuses as Abu Ghraib were immoral has nothing to do with this.

So what?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 05:57 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Is there any such thing as a person who believes that 9/11 was a government conspiracy who doesn't hold anti-Semitic views?


While I don't believe the government conspired to cause 9/11, I do believe that they are lying about what happened for political gain. It would fit the pattern that they have displayed, for sure. I guess you would label me one of your 'theorists.'

And I'm not Anti-Semitic, though I am anti-Zionist and a critic of Israel's actions. There is a clearly defined difference between the two.

Cycloptichorn


I am a critic of many of Israel's actions. This clearly is not anti-semitic. I don't know what anti-Zionist means but the propadanda films that were sent to me (which I watched because of family ties) which used this term were offensive.

I do strongly support Israel's right to exist and to defend herself (again this does not justify all of Israels actions). I don't think that wanting to drive Israel into the see is a rationally supportable solution.

I also noticed that the so-called "theories" are more a search for little things that can be exploited to ignite the imagination. I haven't seen any theory that could explain anything without glaring flaws.

So, tell me what truth you think the government is lying about? I would love to see a theory (other than the official version) that could hold up to the any amount of questioning.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 06:55 pm
Alex Jones: Most Police, Firefighters Now Believe 9/11 Inside Job
Truth events at ground zero enjoy very encouraging reception

Paul Joseph Watson/Prison Planet.com | September 11 2006

Documentary film maker and radio host Alex Jones, coordinating today's 9/11 truth movement events in downtown New York City, says that the atmosphere around ground zero has dramatically changed, with the majority of firefighters and police officers now sympathetic to the claim that 9/11 was an inside job.

Alex is featured at the end of the Associated Press video above imploring viewers to understand that 9/11 was "a self-inflicted wound designed to create a police state in the U.S. and capture us as an engine for world government and world domination."

Alex was assigned to lead a protest march today which he described as over 1000 strong as it snaked across ground zero and through lower Manhattan.

Saying that the "entire atmosphere had changed," Alex explained how police support for protesters at ground zero had gone from 20% support two years ago to around 60% support now - with many willing to affirm that sentiment on camera and many knowledgeable about Alex Jones' work and the 9/11 truth movement.

"Police just saying 'keep your investigation going, we appreciate you' on video," said Jones.

"TerrorStorm sets a new standard in documentary filmmaking. Alex Jones knocks it out of the park yet again." -Dylan Avery, Director, "Loose Change" - Click here to get the DVD or click here to watch online now!

"The firemen we've been talking to - a hundred per cent are on our side and have seen the documentary films....it is just incredible what's happened at the grass roots."

Jones said that the few debunkers who were spewing Bush administration style propaganda were met with distain from the police.

"I think that thing that triggered it was the fact that the government lied about the dust, the asbestos all of it," said Jones in citing why first responders and police have become increasingly skeptical about anything the government says about 9/11.

Alex later commenced a vocal bullhorning of ground zero and led a chant of "9/11 was an inside job," more on that to come tomorrow.

Click here to listen to Alex Jones' groud zero report.

A benchmark of the wildfire success of the 9/11 truth movement can be measured with a new CNN poll released today that shows the amount of American citizens who "blame the Bush administration for the September 11, 2001, attacks," has risen from a third to over a half over the past four years.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/110906insidejob.htm
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2006 07:51 pm
Quote:
I would love to see a theory (other than the official version) that could hold up to the any amount of questioning.


There's a reason that I don't sit around starting 'Bush caused 9/11 omg whoah' threads, and that's because I too would love to see a theory that would stand up to questioning.

But, that doesn't change the way I feel in my gut. My dad always said, 'where there's smoke, there's fire.' It seems to me that there were too many coincidences that day. Anyone could say, 'yeah, those were all just coincidences, you are a crazy man,' and what would I say back to them?

So I don't say much about it. But, as a student of history (literally) I realize that throughout every period of human history that has been recorded, there have been plots and cabals, conspiracies, assassinations, manipulations, and lies. Various governmental actions are amongst the worse examples, and I don't believe the US is a single bit different, not for a second. So it wouldn't surprise me.

Combine a heap of coincidences with a administration who I greatly distrust thanks to their continual lies and deceptions and I just can't make myself believe down deep that there haven't been deceptions about 9/11 as well.

I always ask myself, who stands to benefit the most from a situation? And then take a good look at that person for involvment with whatever caused the situation, for a large percentage of the time they will be involved in some fashion. I saw a post on Metafilter today which said:

Quote:

Ergo...everything DIDN'T change until the government MADE it change. Nothing to do with 9/11. Everything to do with a government looking for an excuse to enforce ideas first plotted in the Nixon administration...by the same damn people.

Yes. "Everything changed" == "I want to change everything"


And it reallys struck me as true. The changes in our society weren't first proposed because of 9/11. That's for damn sure. And the people who most wanted to see those changes, were in charge of defending the country. And they were warned, and they didn't defend it. Sorry, but I won't apologize for the fact that this strikes me as somewhat suspicious behaviour.

Cycloptichorn

ps. zionism is a complicated concept, with many different variations. I should clarify and say that I am against the creation of any religious-based state, for any reason. It only serves to heighten meaningless distinctions between people. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#Types_of_Zionism
0 Replies
 
 

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