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One idiot down, two to go!

 
 
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 06:10 am
While George W Bush stick to his guns and continues to jump out from behind his desk and shout boo in his increasingly desperate attempts at relevance, and the rest of the world wonders how a nation with 10,000 nukes can possibly feel threatened by a nation that has none, GWB's pet Brit poodle Tony Bliar is set to be stuffed and mounted by his own party. Next?

Blair's Legacy is a Reckless Adventure That's Wreaked Havoc the World over

The prime minister sealed his fate by signing up in full to a policy now recognised by most Americans as a disaster[/u]
by Jonathan Freedland

Published on Wednesday, September 6, 2006 by the Guardian / UK

The Americans can't quite believe it. Getting rid of Tony Blair? Are you Brits crazy? Like Thatcher before him, Blair finds that the acclaim abroad lingers even when there is derision at home. Maggie was a legend in the States when she was shoved aside by the Tories, and the same is true of Blair. When he does his farewell tour - part Sinatra, part royal goodbye - he'd be a fool not to make a stop in America. Here the ovations are guaranteed.

And yet here, he might also reflect, is where his troubles began. Next week marks the fifth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks which radically altered the course of American foreign policy. Blair's great error, the one that historians will identify as the cause of his decline and eventual downfall, was to sign up for that new programme in full - even when it led to disaster.

September 11 2001 was the turning point. It's easy to forget now that in the election campaign of 2000, Governor George W Bush promised a more "humble" international role for America. Not for him the Balkan entanglements and reckless folly of "nation-building" of the Clinton years. Bush's America would step back.

September 11 changed all that. The "realists" of the Bush administration, those cautious folk who believed in diplomacy and alliances, were banished in favour of the ideologues, those who sought to use US power to remake the world.

So was born the Bush doctrine. It declared that America wouldn't wait for anybody's permission slip to act: if it detected a threat it would strike first, alone and pre-emptively if necessary. And, believing that repressive Arab governments were to blame for driving their frustrated youth to extremism, it would use American might to spread democracy in the Middle East and beyond.

That was the new doctrine: unilateralism, pre-emption and coercive democratisation. And what has been the fate of this new faith? Judged from any and every point of view, it has proved the most spectacular failure.

Take as one measure the three powers dumbly lumped together as the "axis of evil": Iran, Iraq and North Korea (dumb because two of them, Iran and Iraq, were enemies, not partners). Those three nations all pose a greater threat now than they did five years ago. Tehran is closer to a bomb, while Pyong Yang has 400% more fissile material than it did, along with the long-range missiles to dispatch it. Iraq, meanwhile, is a nation in chaos, where scores of civilians are killed every day and where 2,600 US soldiers have lost their lives. It is the clearest case of a self-fulfilling prophecy outside Greek mythology. Bush took a country with next to no links to al-Qaida and made it a terrorist breeding ground. He took a country that posed no threat to the US and made it a graveyard for Americans.

What's more, it's the catastrophe in Iraq that has heightened the danger in Iran and North Korea. Both countries have been able to advance their nuclear plans because they know that the US Gulliver, tied down in Baghdad, is powerless to stop them. With 10 of the 12 divisions of the US army either in or on their way to Iraq, the great hyperpower is reduced to impotence anywhere else. In this way, Iraq proved entirely self-defeating - making the world more safe, not less, for rogue states and nuclear proliferators. It also served as a vivid advertisement for the protective power of nukes: after all, Saddam could be invaded because he didn't have any.

Iraq proved too to be a fatal distraction from the war that should have been declared on 9/11: the war against al-Qaida. There are former US special forces troops seething to this day that they had Osama bin Laden in their sights in Afghanistan - until they were pulled off and sent to Iraq. Strikingly, Bin Laden's name does not even appear in the new "national strategy for combating terrorism", which the administration published yesterday.

The White House praises itself that the US has not been hit in the last five years and that it has disrupted al-Qaida. But it also claims to have done much "to undercut the perceived legitimacy of terrorism", and that is wildly wide of the mark. The horrific truth is that the application of the Bush doctrine has helped vindicate Bin Laden and his ilk in the eyes of the Arab and Muslim world. Five years ago al-Qaida's claim that the west was engaged in a war against Islam ran into widespread scepticism. Yet Bush's words and deeds - from the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq to the abuses at Guantánamo Bay and Abu Ghraib via the talk of a "crusade" against evil and the wilful refusal to engage in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process - have done violent Islamism's recruitment work for it. We know that all too well in Britain, where the "martyr" tapes of the July 7 bombers left no doubt that it was images of Muslim deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine that had won them over. Actions designed to put out the fire of terrorism only served to inflame it.

As for the spread of democracy, that too has been a failure. Bush's chosen method has been force and intimidation, which only proved that when people are confronted with "democracy" imposed from the outside they don't embrace it, but are driven to nationalism instead. Elsewhere, the lazy equation of democracy with elections alone, rather than the long, painstaking work of institution building, left Bush vulnerable to the law of unintended consequences, lending radical groups such as Hamas and Hizbullah an electoral legitimacy they previously lacked.

Genuinely spreading democracy is a noble goal, but Bush could not face the logic of his own position. Not only would it have meant allowing people to vote for parties the US does not like, it would also have seen them rid themselves of regimes the US has long backed. Rhetorically Bush swore he was ready for that, but his continued support for the dictatorships in Pakistan and Egypt, and his closeness to the House of Saud, show it was just talk. Moreover, if the peoples of the Muslim and Arab world were really allowed their say, one of their prime demands would be an end to US and western meddling in their affairs. But that would be a democratisation too far for Washington.

After five long years, the American people are slowly beginning to see the reality of Bush's "war on terror". An AP poll yesterday found one third of Americans believe it is a war the terrorists are winning. Where once 70% backed the Iraq adventure, now regular majorities tell pollsters it was a mistake. Democrats are billing November's midterm elections, campaigning for which began in earnest this week, as a referendum on all this - and they reckon they can win a majority in the House of Representatives for the first time in 12 years.

Accordingly, the Bushies are trying to soften their approach, resorting to diplomacy and alliances in dealing with Iran, for example. But that's chiefly because Iraq has deprived them of military options. "There's a change of course, but not a change of heart," one senate Democrat told me.

Either way, it's too late for Tony Blair. He signed up for the Bush project, even though it was doomed. His aides speak of legacy, but this is his legacy - to have glued himself to a reckless venture which has wreaked havoc the world over. Destroying the Blair premiership is the very least of it.

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006

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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,155 • Replies: 21
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 06:25 am
I thought we already got rid of this idiot.

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/bubba_goes_ballistic_on_abc_about_its_damning_9_11_movie_nationalnews_ian_bishop_________post_correspondent.htm
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 07:46 am
If the present Commander-In-Chief had anywhere near the intelligence and ability of his predecessor, we would not be in anywhere near the mess we are in-in several departments.

If the electorate had a chance to vote for either man again, Clinton would win in a landslide.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 07:53 am
Re: One idiot down, two to go!
freedom4free wrote:
While George W Bush stick to his guns and continues to jump out from behind his desk and shout boo in his increasingly desperate attempts at relevance, and the rest of the world wonders how a nation with 10,000 nukes can possibly feel threatened by a nation that has none...

Even a million nukes won't help, if someone sneaks a WMD into New York, LA, etc., and sets it off.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 10:13 am
Re: One idiot down, two to go!
Brandon9000 wrote:
freedom4free wrote:
While George W Bush stick to his guns and continues to jump out from behind his desk and shout boo in his increasingly desperate attempts at relevance, and the rest of the world wonders how a nation with 10,000 nukes can possibly feel threatened by a nation that has none...

Even a million nukes won't help, if someone sneaks a WMD into New York, LA, etc., and sets it off.


That is a possibility. We must kill all their mules.

http://www.theync.com/images/picweaponsproof.JPG
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 10:53 am
Re: One idiot down, two to go!
freedom4free wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
freedom4free wrote:
While George W Bush stick to his guns and continues to jump out from behind his desk and shout boo in his increasingly desperate attempts at relevance, and the rest of the world wonders how a nation with 10,000 nukes can possibly feel threatened by a nation that has none...

Even a million nukes won't help, if someone sneaks a WMD into New York, LA, etc., and sets it off.


That is a possibility. We must kill all their mules.

http://www.theync.com/images/picweaponsproof.JPG

Is evasion your primary tool of argument? All of our nukes won't help us if someone sneaks a WMD into the US in pieces and detonates it from within, be it nuclear or biological. Do you have any capacity at all to defend your ideas or do you just cut and paste other people's thoughts?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 11:06 am
Quote:
All of our nukes won't help us if someone sneaks a WMD into the US in pieces and detonates it from within, be it nuclear or biological.


What might help us then... hmm... maybe spending more money on making sure that this doesn't happen by securing our shipping and air cargo?

Something the Bush admin has stalwartly refused to fund?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 11:56 am
Re: One idiot down, two to go!
Brandon9000 wrote:

Is evasion your primary tool of argument?



An intent focus on maintaining a level of ignorance that's beyond the pale is, in and of itself, the greatest form of evasion.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 01:57 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
All of our nukes won't help us if someone sneaks a WMD into the US in pieces and detonates it from within, be it nuclear or biological.


What might help us then... hmm... maybe spending more money on making sure that this doesn't happen by securing our shipping and air cargo?

Something the Bush admin has stalwartly refused to fund?

Cycloptichorn

Probably, but I would think that it would be almost impossible to attain 100% efficiency in keeping components of nukes and bioweapons from entering the country by any possible route forever. The terrorists only have to succeed once. We have to succeed every time. Far better to eliminate the dangers overseas, before they are fully materialized.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 02:12 pm
It is impossible to eliminate terrorists overseas with 100% efficiency. We only have to miss a couple of them, and the world is a big place.

Far better to play some defense at home.

Why do you play these games, Brandon? You cannot achieve 100% efficiency at anything. Therefore, saying that we shouldn't focus more on defense because we can't achieve a perfect defensive situation is ludicrous.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 02:21 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
It is impossible to eliminate terrorists overseas with 100% efficiency. We only have to miss a couple of them, and the world is a big place.

Far better to play some defense at home.

Why do you play these games, Brandon? You cannot achieve 100% efficiency at anything. Therefore, saying that we shouldn't focus more on defense because we can't achieve a perfect defensive situation is ludicrous.

Cycloptichorn

Kindly leave your speculations about my motives, qualities, etc. out of the argument. I'm saying that it is much easier to detect and stop people before they try to kill you than to try to make our borders 100% impervious. If any competent entity wants to smuggle a few small parts into the country, it is tantamount to impossible to stop them.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 02:29 pm
Quote:

Kindly leave your speculations about my motives, qualities, etc. out of the argument. I'm saying that it is much easier to detect and stop people before they try to kill you than to try to make our borders 100% impervious. If any competent entity wants to smuggle a few small parts into the country, it is tantamount to impossible to stop them.


And I'm saying, no, it isn't easier to detect and stop people in other countries than it is to play defense here at home. Especially given the amount of monies being spent. And it isn't impossible to stop terrorists from smuggling WMD into our country, either.

We could have radiation and bio detectors in all of our ports for what we spend in Iraq in two weeks. We could beef up the coast guard and ANG significantly for what we spend in Iraq in a month. We could wall off the southern border, use satellites, and a bunch of HUMINT for the amount we spend in Iraq in two months. Yet we have done none of these things.

You claim things are 'impossible' without ever providing objective evidence that they are impossible, or even improbable.

Let me ask you: since no system is 100% efficient, isn't the smartest move to try multiple forms of attacking the problem - activity overseas, AND defense at home?

Then WHY isn't the defense at home happening, at all??!?!?!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 02:38 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Kindly leave your speculations about my motives, qualities, etc. out of the argument. I'm saying that it is much easier to detect and stop people before they try to kill you than to try to make our borders 100% impervious. If any competent entity wants to smuggle a few small parts into the country, it is tantamount to impossible to stop them.


And I'm saying, no, it isn't easier to detect and stop people in other countries than it is to play defense here at home. Especially given the amount of monies being spent. And it isn't impossible to stop terrorists from smuggling WMD into our country, either.

We could have radiation and bio detectors in all of our ports for what we spend in Iraq in two weeks. We could beef up the coast guard and ANG significantly for what we spend in Iraq in a month. We could wall off the southern border, use satellites, and a bunch of HUMINT for the amount we spend in Iraq in two months. Yet we have done none of these things.

You claim things are 'impossible' without ever providing objective evidence that they are impossible, or even improbable.

Let me ask you: since no system is 100% efficient, isn't the smartest move to try multiple forms of attacking the problem - activity overseas, AND defense at home?

Then WHY isn't the defense at home happening, at all??!?!?!

Cycloptichorn

Yes, it is smartest to try multiple forms of defense. In fact what I am saying is that this game cannot be won purely defensively. I do not believe it is possible to make every conceivable form of entry into the US, air, land, and sea, 100% impervious to smuggling in pieces of nukes or bioweapons. We can't even keep illegal aliens from walking in from Mexico, much less put in place an impervious screen against brining in small hidden objects by land, sea, or air. Even, if you could put a cordon around the US with appropriate detectors every half mile, and in every airport, you'd still be left with human error. You are much more likely to achieve results by trying to keep WMD out of certain very dangerous hands, and by trying to kill people plotting to attack you before they are ready to implement their plans. Even if you could, by some miracle, create a screen that would absolutely keep all nukes and bioweapons out, all that would happen is that your enemies would make a large conventional bomb to blow up a mall or movie theater or something. This game cannot be won purely defensively.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 02:48 pm
I agree; as I said earlier, which you seem to have forgotten, no system is 100% efficient. We cannot rely strictly on offense or defense.

Here is the assertion that keeps getting you in trouble:

Quote:
You are much more likely to achieve results by trying to keep WMD out of certain very dangerous hands, and by trying to kill people plotting to attack you before they are ready to implement their plans.


There are a whole host of problems with this statement.

First, we don't always know who the terrorists are or when they plan to attack. Without defenses in place at home, we are basically wide open to assualt from unkown directions.

Second, the amount of money it costs to do what you are talking about is truly staggering. We have spent tremendous amounts on attacking those who are plotting to attack us (supposedly) and have not achieved results that have made us safer here at home, by any means.

Third, you posit that:

the success rate of attacking enemies overseas > the success rate of stopping attacks here at home

without ever providing objective evidence that this is so. Not a piece of it, actually, other than your complaints about defense not being 100% perfect. So this is nothing more than a baseless assertion at this point.

Fourth, killing inevitably begets more hatred and killing. You discount the very real fact that when we kill people, especially innocents (they don't care if we were really trying to get the bad guys in the next house, they still have to deal with their shattered lives regardless of intent) we further alienate even greater numbers of people from both our society and our point of view and our cause. This is not a path to success.

It's hard to argue against assertions like this and take you seriously. A question for you: why haven't defenses been put in at home, even if they aren't 100% effective? Why haven't we spent the money to at least attempt to do so? And why aren't people like yourself, who seem so goddamn concerned about terrorism that you feel it is cause to change our society and go to war around the globe, screaming bloody murder that you aren't better defended?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 03:05 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I agree; as I said earlier, which you seem to have forgotten, no system is 100% efficient. We cannot rely strictly on offense or defense.

Here is the assertion that keeps getting you in trouble:

Quote:
You are much more likely to achieve results by trying to keep WMD out of certain very dangerous hands, and by trying to kill people plotting to attack you before they are ready to implement their plans.


There are a whole host of problems with this statement.

First, we don't always know who the terrorists are or when they plan to attack. Without defenses in place at home, we are basically wide open to assualt from unkown directions.

I didn't claim that destroying one's enemies before they destroy one is easy. I said that making a shield that would have a reasonable likelihood of stopping the determined smuggling of a WMD into the US is basically impossible.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Second, the amount of money it costs to do what you are talking about is truly staggering. We have spent tremendous amounts on attacking those who are plotting to attack us (supposedly) and have not achieved results that have made us safer here at home, by any means.

How much do you figure it would cost to make it virtually impossible to smuggle small objects into the US by land, sea, or air? How much would it cost in the end if a bioweapon killed a million people in NYC?

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Third, you posit that:

the success rate of attacking enemies overseas > the success rate of stopping attacks here at home

without ever providing objective evidence that this is so. Not a piece of it, actually, other than your complaints about defense not being 100% perfect. So this is nothing more than a baseless assertion at this point.

I am saying that you cannot keep out a determined and competent effort to bring the components of a WMD into the country at all.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Fourth, killing inevitably begets more hatred and killing. You discount the very real fact that when we kill people, especially innocents (they don't care if we were really trying to get the bad guys in the next house, they still have to deal with their shattered lives regardless of intent) we further alienate even greater numbers of people from both our society and our point of view and our cause. This is not a path to success.

You seem to be arguing that opposing one's enemies by force is futile, but I'd say that failing to do so is suicide.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
It's hard to argue against assertions like this and take you seriously. A question for you: why haven't defenses been put in at home, even if they aren't 100% effective? Why haven't we spent the money to at least attempt to do so? And why aren't people like yourself, who seem so goddamn concerned about terrorism that you feel it is cause to change our society and go to war around the globe, screaming bloody murder that you aren't better defended?
Cycloptichorn

Defenses should be strengthened, and I believe that some of this is taking place, but no amount of effort will stop a serious effort to attack us. All they have to do is put a few sticks of dynamite in a mall, or attack any of a million other possible targets. It's self-evident that you cannot protect every possible target against every possible form of attack 24 x 7 for the rest of eternity. Far better to kill people overseas while they're still just plotting.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 03:25 pm
You are resorting to extremes once again, you really should watch out for that.

It doesn't have to be virtually impossible to smuggle something in to make defense a good idea. It just needs to make it improbable in order to be effective. 100% effective? No, nothing is 100% effective. But far, far, far better than nothing.

Quote:

I am saying that you cannot keep out a determined and competent effort to bring the components of a WMD into the country at all.


Assertion. Provide evidence that a determined effort to keep out baddies will have no effect on their ability to smuggle WMD in. Just because we can't stop them 100% of the time, doesn't mean that we can't try to make it more difficult for them, does it? You seem to be positing that it makes it futile to even try.

Quote:

Defenses should be strengthened, and I believe that some of this is taking place


Do you have any proof that this is taking place? It should be readily apparent, if it is true; it would be news, for sure, if we were strengthening our borders, port security.

If you cannot provide this evidence, then what do you base your belief on?

Quote:
Far better to kill people overseas while they're still just plotting.


The problem is, you are positing a 100% success rate in targetting overseas terrorists and stopping them. Need I remind you that we have not located or captured OBL? We are so far from a 100% rate of success, that for you to claim it is better to focus purely on offense is ridiculous.

Your argument is one long assertion, from start to finish. You don't have any stats, or facts, sources, or articles that support your beliefs or point of view. Until you can provide them, there really isn't any reason to take your point of view seriously on this subject. Once you do, then we can begin to have a real discussion on the issue.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 03:43 pm
Brandon9000
Quote:
Far better to kill people overseas while they're still just plotting


This is a never ending circle, this 'war on terror' will never end, unless of course you have the power to kill every single (thats 1.2 billion) muslims, on this planet. For every terrorist you kill, one hundred are born/radicalized.

Brandon, do you know the birth rate of Muslim countries?
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 03:43 pm
So Britain will be left with a dilemma...the two likely replacements are Gordon Brown,Chancellor/treasurer, who has gone along with Blair's spending spree, or Home Secretary John Reid.

A couple quibbles with them are Brown wants Britain to remain in possession of nukes...which is apparently an unpopular stance there...and of course Reid will have to have a widely acceptable plan for the WOT/securety.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 03:06 pm
I declined getting that home alarm system and the guard dog and opted instead for a sniper rifle and a few molotov cocktails.

Now I just head into the neighborhoods where the robbers hang out (you know, that neighborhood) with my address plasted all over my car and smoke a few of 'em.
Slowly, they will all meet an untimely expiriation.

Saved a bundle on the monitoring of my own home.
A bundle.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 10:54 pm
candidone1 wrote:
I declined getting that home alarm system and the guard dog and opted instead for a sniper rifle and a few molotov cocktails.

Now I just head into the neighborhoods where the robbers hang out (you know, that neighborhood) with my address plasted all over my car and smoke a few of 'em.
Slowly, they will all meet an untimely expiriation.

Saved a bundle on the monitoring of my own home.
A bundle.

There actually are terrorists trying to kill us, who would certainly kill us by the million with nukes and bioweapons, if they could obtain them. I don't suppose you do anything analagous in your private life to World War 2 either, but it was considered a just war to stop Hitler and fascism.
0 Replies
 
 

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