Is Physical Appearance Completely Irrelavant?

Okay, of course I haven't read most of the responses (so sue me!). The answer is - I sure hope so, because I generally don't give a damn about how I look, a point that becomes fairly obvious when you meet me.

Yes, I observe all common grooming rituals. I'm not scary (I don't think). I'm not unsanitary.

But I also don't spend forever making myself up or doing my hair, and I haven't since I was a teenager. I don't even own mascara anymore. I don't know when I last used lipstick.

And ya know what? I don't give a damn. :-D

Hmm, thanks c.i. I am happy to say that the small amount of jewllery Mrs. cav wears was purchased by me.

Soz, it is just as creepy to Mrs. cav as it is to you, the 'jealousy' thing, but maybe I should be clear that these were specific cases regarding people she knows, and it seems that this professional female jealousy happens more often than anyone really wants to admit. Personally, Mrs. cav doesn't give a crap, and would prefer that her friends stop asking her for advice, but hey....for some reason, they still do.

Regarding the power issue, there was another question Mrs. cav posed to some woman friends: When crossing the border, who do you want as your customs agent, a woman or a man? The overwhelming consensus was a man.

That a girl!

I gotta say, environment makes a huge difference. Where you live. I live in a hoitier-toitier place than I would like, land of frosted highlights and designer togs. When we went to Minneapolis recently, I was like, ahhhh. That's more like it.

Yes, Soz, that's the question. Why should any of us do as we do? I hope the answer will be because that's the way that makes sense to us. If Madonna or whoever did it the way she did it, that's her perogative. She's a talented woman and complex as many of us are. We each have our own ways. Just because I don't organize myself the way another person does, does not make either me or the other person necessarily wrong. Some people have more money than time for a variety of reasons. Some have more time than money. Whatever the resources of the person, and their priorities, that's the way they manage. I find it unnecessary to critisize others for their methods. I prefer to try to understand the person and try to see it their way, as I expect others to do the same for me.

Sometimes it does come down, in fact, to poorly managed jealousy. As I've said, I've seen more of it lately. And when that happens, it's both unpleasant and potentially destructive.

Hmm, we're getting into fine distinctions.

What I was getting at is that I personally can be annoyed that, because of the actions of Madonna or Cindy, women are given even less slack in when they are expected to "look their best" without being jealous of them. They have every right to do what they wish, and I don't have any desire to curtail those rights. But my irritation is not about jealousy.

[quote="Lola"]Patio,

Are you trying to say that I'm better at the submit button than you are?[/quote]

I'm just saying that we were posting together, and had breathless long-winded posts at that, and that you finished just before I did.

Make of that what you will.

(now that's not going to cause a stir, is it?)

Hmm, if not jealousy, competition perhaps? Back when all those celebs were having kids, in such a closed community such as Hollywood, wasn't there some of that going on, or was it just coincidence they all had babies and got their pics taken at the same time? That definitely irritated me at the time....

Competition amongst each other, quite possibly. But that's not really what I'm talking about.

Maybe this will make it more clear:

Jealousy, to my mind, is thinking, "I wish I looked like that." While what I am talking about is thinking, "Ugh, why does society expect me to look like that?"

I'll use braces as an example. There was a time when people didn't get braces, or only the richest and most priveleged. If someone was beautiful and had crooked teeth, well, so did everyone. The beauty trumped the crooked teeth.

As braces became more and more commonplace, it became more and more of a social expectation that if you had crooked teeth, you would get braces, and if you didn't, there was some Reason for that. Braces aren't fun. Braces are rarely medically necessary. But if you are the otherwise beautiful person with crooked teeth, you are at a disadvantage these days.

Am I against braces? No. I had braces. Hated 'em, but they straightened my teeth and I looked way better after them. I am glad I had them, glad I had the right to have them, glad I wasn't looked down upon for having them. But I'm sure there was some generation, in between nothing and ubiquity, which had people who thought "Ugh, why does society expect me to look like that?", whose disgruntlement did not necessarily have anything to do with jealousy of those who'd had their teeth straightened.

If you walk in someone's shoes
If you walk in another person's shoes, perhaps it will be easier to understand how people's reactions to others can hurt so much that it causes withdrawal from society. Cruel actions hurt; words may hurt worse.

This is the true story of a woman as she once revealed it to me.

-----BumbleBeeBoogie

"I was deeply in love with the man I married in my youth. A few years later, I became ill and was hospitalized with one of the worst outbreaks of genital herpes the doctors had ever witnessed at the time. My husband confessed that he'd been unfaithful and slept with another woman from whom he'd contracted the herpes.

It took (and is still taking) a long time for me to overcome that betrayal and with the legacy he left me. When I did regain my sense of self-worth and start dating again, I was faced with the responsibility of having to tell my partners about the herpes so they could make choices to protect themselves. More often then not, the relationship would end soon after and I was left to deal with the rejection and unfairness of something I had no control over. Twenty-five years later, it has been 18 years since I last had a flare up of the herpes, yet I'm still contagious and must advise sexual partners. Each time this peels the scabs off wounds that desperately want to heal.

After years of the endless opening of old wounds each time I dared have a friendship with a man, I slowly built up a wall of fat to discourage men from wanting anything to do with me. And it worked....too well.

Now that I have my wall of fat protecting me, I am faced with new prejudices. I've been out to a restaurant with family and had a man come up to the table and pointedly ask me why I was so fat. I've been out for lunch with coworkers and overheard people at other tables ask to be relocated so they wouldn't have to look at me. At the office anonymous holiday gift exchanges, I've had people give me cans of Slim Fast.

Every day I experience people shutting me out of their scope of interest and brushing me aside. It is exactly what my wall of fat was designed to do. And it hurts just as much as when I was skinny and wanting to avoid the task of telling my lovers about the legacy my asshole husband gave me. What hurts even more is that this time it is something I can control and something I've done to myself as a survival tactic.

The nice thing about the passing of time is that now that I am getting older, I realize that I can be comfortable with allowing my thin self to resurface because my aging body will provide a nice substitute for that ugly wall of fat. Maybe those old wounds will finally have a chance to scar. I realize that the herpes isn't something I had control over, but at the same time it isn't something I can just forget about.

I know why people are so drawn to interactions on the internet. It gives them a chance to not be brushed aside and an opportunity to blossom without the baggage getting in the way."

Good evening. I've spent the last half hour reading ALL 15 pages.
There were some provocative twists and turns in the discussion and there was also a new word for me back on maybe page 4 or so: bier....
Anyway, I get to page 15 and read jespah's post. Damn. She nailed the same point I was thinking about making.
This is undoubtedly pretty wierd but...imagine that the mirror had never been invented. You could see other people and they could see you, but you couldn't see yourself (shaving would be a real hassle...)

As someone who can barely even stand makeup on a woman, I think I still am where you were re: braces. Except in the most extreme cases, I don't see why an adolescent should have those things inflicted on them (and their college fund) just so they can have the dubious benefit of perfectly straight teeth. The gf sometimes talks about her poor orthodonture -- her lower teeth are ever so slightly shifted. Who gives a sh!t about that? Why is that important?

But then, I guess even I will have to get a haircut sometime in the near future...


(Orthodonture: teeth should be straight and white, just like your kids.)

rjb, the mirror probably doesn't have much to do with it, in the end. In a community of 10 people, 5 women and 5 men, 4 women would notice that the 5th was getting all the attention from the men and would do their best to figure out why...

rjb, I suppose one could get a partner for shaving purposes. 'Course that would redefine trust in a biiiig way.

Eeeeheeeheeheeheeheeheeheehee . . .

yer such a bad man, Patio . . . heeheeheeheeheeheehee . . .

okbye

Didja see the thing in the Onion about the teeth whitening -- "It makes your teeth so white, they're transparent!" Did a search but didn't come up with anything. Another branch of silliness. (But I digress... I think.)

Looks are relevant, very much so. But, I'm glad I wasn't a beautiful child, on the contrary I thought myself quite ugly with big knees & elbows, hip bones protruding. I ran and played outdoors constantly and my skin and hair were the same color, brown, from all that sun. Mostly, I was curious about everything and loved animals. Also found time to read, read, tons of books

I've often wondered what exactly does happen. At about 15 the grownups are saying how "pretty" am I, couple years later it became "beautiful." Didn't matter if I didn't believe them, life just became more fun. Beauty is a sort of thing a girl can create, it is knowing where to put the makeup, wearing the right clothes.

I still like being female and I'll keep what looks I can until I'm gone. Can't wear eye makeup anymore but I can stay trim and work on skin care as all this just makes life more fun each day. But, now, I just want things like a new pair of paddock books, new riding jeans.

I haven't really had too rough a time in my career(s) because people seemed to think I was rather funny. Maybe that's because as a high school student I knew practically NOTHING. So, I played with that, playing dumb, like a Lucille Ball, since they thought maybe I was. I have an independent streak that doesn't bend, so I don't, won't be fenced in.

About the New Mexico thread: The pic of Blatham was a surprise. He appears to be a gentle, funny, fun sort of person when I imagined him to be big and mean. Ha. So, I guess I can tease somebody I don't even know, or maybe I can't.

Butterflynet's remark was, simply, hysterical. Sorry, that is the way I see it. Bless her heart (that's what they say here in TX) she just came right out with it. Besides, Lola doesn't exactly have low self esteem. Now, if she had said that about meeee, it would probably be so.

Tex-Star, I agree with you; Lola was independent as soon as she breathed her first breath, and said "hello world, I'm here!." c.i.

cha-ching

I have a huge rant on this. I'll save it for the next male bashing party.

I'll admit to being independent. That's very nice of you c.o., Tex STar and ehbeth. But I do have feelings, as does everyone. I'll tell you my feelings were hurt by what Butrflynet said. Sometimes I am overly sensitive and I work to hide it. I can put on a big bluff. But I think doing and saying hurtful things goes for everyone. You never know when you're wounding. There are many things I could "come right out and say" but I try to be mindful of the feelings of others (I often fail at this, too often for my own comfort.) So I prefer to recognize that sometimes we have bad days. And I believe Butrflynet may have been having one of those that day. In any case, it's sparked an interesting discussion. It's involved an absolutely marvelous cast of participants. And it's been thought provoking for me. I'll survive my little hurt feelings. And I'll control my out of bounds rage about it. I have just told my friend Blatham on IM that I've been feeling a little bit like I did in Sunday School with my sisters. And I've been feeling in danger of showing my big rosy ass any time now. But I'll manage myself.......nothing is ever as clear cut as it might seem on the surface. It's very easy to misunderstand on these boards. And I know that very well. And I love you all for recognizing that I don't have to be coddled.

Soz,

I'm curious though. Why do you feel "society" expects you to be any certain way? I've not ever discovered any one "society" out there. It seems to me it's all just individuals with their own opinions.