Is Physical Appearance Completely Irrelavant?

And yes, I am peeved that only the men's minds and slack jaws were called into question, both in the initial post and the follow up.

Thanks Deb, always good to have a raging feminist on my side in even a small point of this type.

I am not certain (because I did not follow the thread much) but I think there were FAAAAR more comments about the appearance of the men than the women.

Why weren't those observations chastized so harshly and the observers called slack jawed and their intellect questioned?

<blatham if you say I arouse feelings in you on this thread we are gonna have a spat>

(picture hospital monitor flat-lining)

What thread did Blatham say THAT on? (Agog)

deb

That's a very honest post. A bunch of posts here and earlier have been very honest. I think we are dealing with something quite emotionally powerful for each of us, and in retrospect, probably shouldn't be too surprised that an initial spark set off many others.

deb

I'm not allowed to speak in public regarding craven's and my earlier relationship.

Craven, I agree with you wholeheartedly. It took me a bit to recognize that Butrflynet's criticism was of the men admiring female beauty. There was as much talk by the women about the physical attractiveness of the men as there was by the men about the women. I have the same question you have. What is wrong with being admired as a sex object, male or female? Are mind and body not related? Does the desire to be sought after or admired as a sexually appealing person exclude all possibility for being seen as intelligent or interested in intelligent communication? Isn't intelligence as appealing as a sun dress? Doesn't the whole person get figured in here somehow? This is an area in which I think feminism is misrepresented. But I've never liked the term feminism. It seems to imply that women and men are somehow not equal in their ability to be unfair with members of the opposite sex. I've never been a feminist. I've rather thought of myself as a person who is interested in the rights of all people, male and female, to express themselves in the ways that bring joy and meaning to their lives.

I wonder too.........Maxsdadeo has brought it up already as well, if my open talk about cosmetic surgery is another aspect of this discussion. I've made no apologies or excuses for my clear attempt to enhance my appearance and to hold onto a relatively youthful look for as long as I'm able. It's not for everyone, but for some it's an option that's available. And I haven't tried to hide it as many women who take this option try to do. I've joked about it. I think it's a controversial issue. But one of interest to many.

I look forward with interest to the discussion on this thread.

To bed with me now. I need my beauty sleep. :-)

Lola,

I used to call myself a feminist but certain brands of feminism changed that.

I DO think your cosmetic surgery is an issue and have very strong words about that that I will reserve for a day in which I am able to phrase them without vulgarity.

For now I will say that I belive your candor about it brings out something ugly in others.

I believe it's for those reasons that many who try that option hide it.

hmm - I agree the "sex object between consenting adults" thing is fine, and natural and fun.

That is not, generally, what is criticised - what IS criticized is the assignation of the majority of that role to one gender - and that being a defining and confining role.

May I say, after years of arguing this one, that a number of male friends have sought me out after having the experience of working in gay male bars - and have said: "NOW I understand." I think it is only after one has been at the very pointy end of this one, for a reasonable amount of time, that a deep anger builds - I, for instance, am probably way too sensitive on this one - but it is for good reason and by bitter experience.

I hope the majority of these experiences no longer occur for young women in, for example, the hospitality industry - if they do not, it is by dint of what feminists within the trade union movement and the legislature have been able to do.

It may well be that the heat of those battles have left many of us - myself included - with shell shock - and starting at the sound of harmless fun, thinking it is another shell. Hopefully, such over-reaction, if it is that, will fade away and cease to be, as it is no longer relevant.

And no blatham i will not marry you.

you could had the decency to propose in public.. I mean in a PM it's just so tacky

LOL

I agree with Lola regarding Buterfly's reading interpretation. I thought each person was represented in a positive light by those in attendance at the gathering, as well as a2k members who were not in attendance and who commented regarding the gathering photos.

Publishing the pictures on the forum was not meant to disparage any person, but a genuine sharing of the experience for those of us who were not in attendance.

I also agree with the rest of your post Lola. How each person presents themselves is individualistic, personal, and unique. More importantly is how we relate to each other as people.

Deb,

I really dislike when men are untoward in their appreciation of beauty. I have always taken them to task for this.

But is there not many kinds of this act?

By this I mean that whenever a friend of mine beeped their car horn at a girl I'd smack him upside the head and tell him that:

A) you are gonna get nowhere with a beep

and

B) you just made her harder to get for the next guy (incentives incentives)

And while the thread in question reminded me of that I did not see that it was discomfitting to Lola and think that she is the main person who has a right to be offended by it.

Every time I see someone commenting on Lola's avatar or something I roll my eyes and wonder if she ever tires of it.

But that's not my battle it's hers and I couldn't understand why the sharpest barb had to be directed her way.

Oh well. I think it's important to mention that I "lead with my ass" (I stole that from Timber) and BFN has retracted that barb.

So now I just want to see the ladies called slack jawed apes for once. :-)

And right after that I'm gonna ask if a couple has the right to gawk and such.

Because that's relevant and hardly a secret.

Well, you guys punish me for being slack jawed right away. I'm one who was gawking at the men (especially one of them.) And I see no harm in it. I didn't hear any of the men feeling diminished by it. But if they did, I apologize. It truly never occurred to me this could be the case.

And I certainly do not mind compliments. Certainly not about my avatar, Craven. After all, an avatar is entirely voluntary. (The legs are not my real legs.) I chose the avatar and will continue to enjoy it's use. I could have kept the name Ethel and chosen a frog for an avatar had I been worried about comments about my legs.
I feel the way Dolly Pardon says she feels about comments about her breasts. She says, "well, it's me that has um out there for everyone to see."

I like attention for both my appearance (which I work for) and for the content of my thinking processes. I think everyone does. It seems to me that it's a fear of others knowing of this pleasure, gratification, if you will, that causes so many of us to pretend to be uninterested in attention from others. A person who is clearly so shallow they attend only to physical attributes is as short sighted as one who attends exclusively to only one other limited aspect of communicating with others. Some people, I believe try to look as plain as possible in order to disavow a wish to be admired. Just as some pretend to be less intelligent than they are, constantly putting themselves down, or take on a false sense of humility for the same reason.

But there is no sin in a wish to be admired. I think for some it conjures up fears of dependency which seem highly dangerous. And when a person believes dependency is weak or foolish, they may very well attempt to pretend they have no dependent needs or needs for attention and admiration from others.

I agree with Deb, physical attractiveness serves an important survival function and is connected to aggressive and competitive impulses which are a danger ground for many of us. And these fears are as great for men as well as women.

In any case, I've never minded approving attention for my appearance, wit or intellect (or disapproving for that matter). Nor do I look down on anyone else who enjoys it. I think most people do enjoy, if only they could learn to relax and let it happen. We'd all be a lot more comfortable and happier.

If someone whistles at a man, I quite enjoy it because it is a genuine compliment.

If I'm on a date and the women gawks and leers at another man, I quite enjoy it because it shows she's not the type to blame, shame, manipulate, accuse and hate men for every little thing. She likes men, appreciates people, and I love her more because of it.

If anyone spends more than two minutes a day thinking about their appearance, then obviously the answer is yes. Physical appearance is important to them. So let's not be hypocrites and not talk about their appearance.

If life is a game, then play, enjoy and have fun. If you don't want someone to admire your body then just put comfortable, baggy clothes on, and play a different game.

If you want people to appreciate you for music, carry a small instrument around.
If you want people to appreciate you for your philosophy, then carry an interesting book.
If you want to impress and manipulate the money world, dress to the nines.
If you want sexual energy back and forth, wear provocative clothes.
If you want art and playfulness from people, wear colorful strange clothes.

The type of interaction you receive is completely up to you. And your decisions reflect who you are. You reap what you sow; get what you give; what goes around comes around. So let's not be coy, and just enjoy!

Celebrate your appearance like anything else.

"Is Physical Appearance Completely Irrelevant?" On this site and others like it, yes.

We encounter one another, talk, form impressions. Yet we don't see one another.

In the noncyber world, no. It would be almost impossible not to be affected by what we see. I suspect that people who are not entirely comfortable with this fact may find sites like this to be a safe harbor.

Staple an omlette to your forehead, it will do wonders for your lovelife.

In answer to this topical question: "Well, of course it does, sheesh . . . "

Whether or not is should is a red herring . . .

heeheeheeheeheeheeheehee . . . Mr. S, yer a bad man . . .

okbye

Lola

We were online with the pics about two days after I returned to Germany :wink:

Here pics, A2K meeting London, 20.03.2003 are about thirty photos, I think.

Amazing Walter............I never saw those pics. I've been gawking at you guys. He He...........slack jaw Lola. Must run now. Back later.

This discussion is so so difficult because there are the abstract concepts, on one hand, and the people who embody these concepts, on the other. I am much more comfortable discussing abstract concepts than in discussing any of the people who embody those concepts.

There is one person who has not yet weighed in at all whose opinion I am very curious about.