Confused and frustrated...

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Well for those who were part of my last post this situation extends rom that a bit, those who were not let me give a brief run down.

I have been friends with this woman for a while now, she is married and has a child with her husband. From the time I met them I got a bad feeling about the way he treats her. He seems, to me, to be very derogatory and abusive in both his words and his actions. He is most definitely cheating on her, and has a complete and utter disregard for her feelings and her dreams.

Things have been slowly escalating in terms of frequency between incidents. Last week she told him you have until May to change your ways and do what you need to do to be what I need in my life. Two days later she was out of her house for the night because things had blown up so severely. She went back and told him that he had two weeks to clean it up or she was going to leave, and two days later she again was out of the house staying at a friends because he reverted back.

Now the last time was Wed night. Since that time she had been out of her place and staying with friends. Originally she was mad, wanted a divorce and said she didn't love him. But over the course of the last day or so she has slowly reverted back to the standard role of, maybe it's my fault, what if I had done this, what if I had done that, you don't see what I do, you don't know him like I do, I can change him, I can make him better.. etc.. etc.. etc.

Today I know, without a doubt in my mind, that unless he does something so stupid that even a 2 year old would know better, she will be going back to him tonight. I find myself in a very bad position at this point in time. I really truly want to be there for her if she should need me for anything. I want to be able to look at her and say I'm here if you need to talk, or if something happens. I want her to know that she has someone she can count on in a pinch if it should come to that. But everything inside me is tearing apart and I don't know what to do at all.

To know that I have to watch her go back into that situation, to watch her sacrifice what she says she wants out of life, for whatever reason she is doing so, is breaking me up something fierce. I find myself confused and frustrated that I cannot do anything to rectify this for her one way or the other, and it's making me less than a pleasant person.

I have called different emotional abuse hotlines, and talked to other women who have gone through this and finally come out the other side. The answer is standard, and seems to be the only one that I will ever get, and that is she will move on and get out from under it when she is ready.

But most of these women stayed in their relationships, that were exceptionally similar, for 8-12 years. That is an enormous amount of time for me to sit by and watch, and I do not think I am capable of being that strong.

One of the major factors that is making this so much harder for me is that there is a child involved. She is a beautiful little girl, and though she is not my daughter, I feel a special affinity towards her. To know that not only is her mother going back into this, but she will be as well is killing me on the inside and I can't seem to find a way to cope or deal with this.

I watch and know that if this is the life her mother stays in, that this child will grow up to accept the same thing for herself, and that thought alone hurts so much it's nearly unbearable. Not to mention that there is concern that my feelings for her mother are not entirely platonic. But whether this is the case or not, I have been trying to figure out not what I can do to force her to go one way or the other, but what I can do for myself, because watching this and seeing both of them go through this, is destroying me.

I know there is no fix for what she is going through but how do I cope? To tell her I can't do this any more, that I can't watch her hurt not only herself but her daughter by going back, I feel like I am abandoning her. My fears of this escalating into a greater form of abuse, such as physical, hold me back from saying I am done, because if I do and something happens to her, how could I ever forgive myself?

In the end I just need to know what I can do to help me. I have tried reading on the topic, and calling the support centers to see what they say, but nothing I have heard so far has helped or even come close to giving me any sight of solace for me in the future. I'm just so unsure of what to do anymore.

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Until the person is willing to change, there is nothing you can say or
do to change her mind. You can tell her that you'll be available to
help her should she choose to leave this abusive relationship,
but until such time, leave her alone.

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First, I think your friend is very lucky to have someone who cares about her and her child as much as you do. I don't think you can prevent her from making whatever choices she makes, but I do think you can try to discourage her from making them. Earlier we were talking about what you should do to tell her about his affairs and actions. This is more about what you might do to talk to her about her own - different story altogether.

Second, my own advice to her is to stop giving him ultimatums. Why May? Two weeks? Hopefully, now that she's out, she won't go back. If she does go back she needs to know that she can't change him or make him better. By going back she's reinforcing his position of authority and only confirming to him that she can't make it without him.

How much of what you've written here have you shared with her? Have you told her about your worries, concerns for what the child is observing, your dread in what might happen to her/them? I'm no expert on this, but I think if you let her know how much you are willing to help her through any transitions, then it might give her enough to hold on to. Has she spoken with any abuse counselors? Can you try to convince her to talk to someone?

In the end, it really does come down to being her decision but I think you can try to guide her in the right direction.

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J_B wrote:

How much of what you've written here have you shared with her? Have you told her about your worries, concerns for what the child is observing, your dread in what might happen to her/them? I'm no expert on this, but I think if you let her know how much you are willing to help her through any transitions, then it might give her enough to hold on to. Has she spoken with any abuse counselors? Can you try to convince her to talk to someone?

In the end, it really does come down to being her decision but I think you can try to guide her in the right direction.

I have expressed to her every last piece of information I have written here, and then some. I have told her what I see, and have given her all the information that I have read on the situation. Her going back is a for gone conclusion, as like most abused women, she believes she CAN change him or at least that he has the propensity for change.

I have talked to a couple women friends of mine, some who went through only the severe emotional abuse, and those who went through both pyshical and emotional, and the theme is constant and recurring. During the beginning and middle stages of this type of relationship, nothing that is said to them about their situation does anything but make them angry at the person expousing the advice or insight. They feel resentment towards that person for ragging on, or belittling someone they care about. They also feel ashamed, though at the time most do not know or at least cannot acknowledge it, because they are allowing this type of a cycle to continue when they know inside that it's not what they deserve nor is it a changable thing.

But my biggest question is what can I do for me. I know that I can do very limited and often what feels completely useless, things for her to help her understand what kind of situation she is in. She will arrive to that conclusion on her own. But while she is making her way towards that, how do I deal with what I am going through? It's her that is being abused, but she does not, or will not allow her self to see it for what it is. I am on the outside looking in and I can see the pain she suffers on a daily basis. I get to look at it and watch as she goes from a vibrant, energetic and happy woman, to a husk and shell of that. I know that during the building phase of the abuse, things are good and he is acting as he should, but all the while like a powder keg waiting, things are building for the next bout, and it keeps happening more and more frequently.

To sit there and watch that happen to someone you care about, is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. I feel powerless and out of control. I hope and pray that I can find a way to help her, at the same time knowing there is nothing I can do aside from be there if she needs me. At the same time it slowly destroys me each day to watch it.

Do I walk away from it and pray she's alright, in an attempt to preserve the parts of me that die each time I see this. Or do I stick it out, suffer through, and hope that my allowing for the emotional abuse he gives to her to affect me, and in a sense take very very very small pieces of that from her, will help her find strength that she otherwise would not have, all the while feeling like I am dying as well?

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Random Acts -

No one but you can determine what you can endure or what limits you must set for yourself. It's clear that you care about your friend and her child. You've offered your support and your counsel to her, but the road she chooses is up to her. It must be painful to watch her make choices that you see as destructive to her soul, but they are her choices to make. Unfortunately, you are limited to letting her know that you're there for her and to help her as best you can.

I noticed you included prayer in your post above. Do you have a spiritual advisor that you trust? Does she? Perhaps Brooke, or others, have some specific advice for someone forced to watch from the sidelines. There might come a time when it becomes too difficult for you and you reach the point when you need to preserve yourself. For now, I think you can only continue to do what you're doing until it becomes too much.

We're here to listen and offer our viewpoint, but we aren't professionals. We can and will sit with you and try to help you talk through what you're facing, but only you have the answer to how much you can endure.

You've already invested a good deal of time educating yourself on abusive patterns. You know you're in a difficult position. If I have any advice for what you can do for yourself it's to care as you do, counsel as you've been doing, but be prepared for what may come by continuing to talk to the abuse counselors and let them help you as best they can.

You have a good heart, RA, but you can only do so much.

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Random Acts,

The first thing you can do for yourself is to let go of your sense of responsibility to help in this issue. You've done your part, she knows how you feel, and now there's nothing more you can do. If you continue to press it, it will only distance yourself from her. A marraige is between 2 people, and you're not one of them, so it's time to back out.

She knows you are there for you if she needs you. Maybe she doesn't need you, but she knows you're there. Be thankful that she does not come to you when she feels the need to sleep out, because that kind of entanglement won't help you.

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Random Acts wrote:

I really truly want to be there for her if she should need me for anything. I want to be able to look at her and say I'm here if you need to talk, or if something happens.

The helpless feeling you have is clouding the fact that you already are there for her by being her friend. While I understand your worry, you can't make her decisions for her. But there is one thing you can do that will help your need to protect her. Tell her you want her to know that you will always try to be just a phone call away. Then devise a signal that is just between you and her. A good thing to do is have her keep her cell phone close to her at all times. She can keep all sounds on mute and have your number configured into speed dial. Of course if she is in trouble she probably won't be able to speak to you, but you will know something is wrong and can call the police for her.

I don't want to make this post so long you do want to read it. However, I do try and choose my words carefully which sometimes makes it seem like they drag out. I need you to listen to what I am about to say. You need to get her to thinking about what she would do if things got worse and she was in fear of her and her child's life. You need to do this very gently. . Do not speak badly of her husband as hard as that might be. It's ok to speak out against the behavior. Just, she is not emotionally ready to leave him, so do not put her on the defense. Anyhow, just come right out and say that you are worried about her and ask her what plans she has to protect her and the child. She probably has none, but you will have planted the seed and get her to hopefully devise some kind of escape or safety net.

Random Acts wrote:

I have been trying to figure out not what I can do to force her to go one way or the other

I'm sure you don't mean that the way it is written. Being forced to do things is what her husband does. She is not a free spirit. No abused woman is. Getting her to be more confident in herself is the ammunition she needs. I can't stress that enough.

Just stay cool. Don't underestimate the value of your support and friendship. She may not be telling you how much she needs that, because, well, she can't right now. If she did, that would be admiting the crime against her. Her screams are silent. They are there though, like an echo that plays over and over in her head. She will never change him. She just hasn't accepted that fact yet.

Random Acts wrote:

I know there is no fix for what she is going through but how do I cope? To tell her I can't do this any more, that I can't watch her hurt not only herself but her daughter by going back, I feel like I am abandoning her. My fears of this escalating into a greater form of abuse, such as physical, hold me back from saying I am done, because if I do and something happens to her, how could I ever forgive myself?

Look after yourself, my friend and don't step past your own limits. Otherwise how can you help her, when you can't help yourself. Have you called the National Domestic Violence Hotline? I'm not overly impressed by what the crisis centers have said to you thus far. You need a lot of support right now. If you call them and they don't give you what you need, ask to speak to a different counsellor. 1-800-799-7233.

I truely feel for you. I know that feeling of desperation. I have tasted it more times than I wish to remember. I'm going to pm you some contact info. If you need me to help you, off forum, I will do that. I'm not sure if I said anything to help you. My brain seems to be dead tonight. Been an extra long day. Smile

Thank God she has a good friend like you.

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Quote:

I know there is no fix for what she is going through but how do I cope? To tell her I can't do this any more, that I can't watch her hurt not only herself but her daughter by going back, I feel like I am abandoning her. My fears of this escalating into a greater form of abuse, such as physical, hold me back from saying I am done, because if I do and something happens to her, how could I ever forgive myself?

Quote:

But my biggest question is what can I do for me. I know that I can do very limited and often what feels completely useless, things for her to help her understand what kind of situation she is in.

Quote:

To sit there and watch that happen to someone you(I) care about, is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do.[/u] I feel powerless and out of control[/u]. I hope and pray that I can find a way to help her[/u], at the same time knowing there is nothing I can do aside from be there if she needs me, At the same time it slowly destroys me [/b]each day to watch it.

Quote:

Do I walk away from it and pray she's alright, in an attempt to preserve the parts of me that die each time I see this. Or do I stick it out, suffer through, and hope that my allowing for the emotional abuse he gives to her to affect me, and in a sense take very very very small pieces of that from her, will help her find strength that she otherwise would not have, all the while feeling like I am dying as well?

Random Acts, its lovely to see a friend of the opposite sex care about someone so much, but I'm going to take the other side of the fence here. I'm sure I'll offend you, or someone else here...but there is just too much smoke in this arena....

In your other post, which I have read, towards the end you admitted to having more than friendly feelings towards this woman.

IMHO, I see you fantasizing that once she hits bottom, that your'e going to be the Knight in Shining armour that picks this lady up and puts all the pieces back together again for her. There's nothing wrong in having feelings for her...but be sure they are in her best interest, and not yours.

One more question? How are you going to feel if after this is all said and done...and she takes another male for friendship, a shoulder to cry on...to confide in?

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What concerns me is the child.
The child seems to be put in second, third, place in all of this.
Hanging in the midst, forgotten and invisible while mum dad and friends play out their little drama.
If that sounds offensive, consider how offensive it is to hear that a child is repeatedly being put into an abusive situation and no one is doing anything to get him/her out of it

Who else is involved, I wonder, and who is thinking of the child first?

The Child should be your, and everyone else who is able to give any support and help, concern right now. He/she deserves the attention. Don't you think?

Your friend, who it does indeed sound like you may have more than friendly feelings for, but also that you genuinely care about as a person, will make her choice to leave or not when she is ready.
You have done all you can. She is an adult, no matter how worn down and hurting, she can choose - she is choosing for herself to go back - and has to choose when she decides not to stay.

The child does not have this luxury! The child can not decide to leave.
Grown-ups make the decision. The child is truly helpless...while your friend is not.

So my suggestion is if you want to help: Look into ways to help the child FIRST.
You can do something there. Do everything you can. Focus your energies there.

This will take your focus off your friend, who you have done all you can for.
Truly, if you have any responsibility to anyone in this situation it is to the child, not your friend!

So - why is this kid still being bounced back and forth in abusive situations with a mother who obviously can not make decisions which protect and assure the safety of her child??
Does the child have grandparents, family....someone to advocate for him/her and look out for their best interests?

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makemeshiver33 wrote:

One more question? How are you going to feel if after this is all said and done...and she takes another male for friendship, a shoulder to cry on...to confide in?

I have thought about this, and while I can only say how I feel now, and not what I will feel or how I will act when the time comes, as we can never predict our true reactions until faced with the situation, I can honestly say that whether or not I have feelings for this woman or not is irrelevant. I want her and her daughter to be safe and happy. That being said, if she chooses to leave and finds someone who treats her as she should be, and loves her daughter and her as they should be loved and treated. I will smile, and be glad that they are safe and happy, and I can move on with life with no regrets because at least I know they will go on the same way.

makemeshiver33 wrote:

The child seems to be put in second, third, place in all of this.

This could not be farther from the truth. Originally I posted

Random Acts wrote:

One of the major factors that is making this so much harder for me is that there is a child involved.

But I know, as well as everyone else does, that this child has no ability to choose for itself, and it comes down to the mother being able to see her situation and to do what is in the best interest of the child. Trying to bring in other family to advocate for the child will do no good. There is no current physical abuse, so there are no overt signs of the problems, and with the mother so determined to change the father, and so scared to leave, she will never admit to the abuse, at least not sufficiently to warrant the childs removal. With out the evidence bringing in other family members would do no good. Besides exactly what family members would I bring in exactly? Her family is excessively abusive, to the point that her father has nearly killed her mother on multiple occassions, so they would be no better for the child than her current situation. In fact they would be worse.

Her daughter is one of my primary concerns. It is an innocent sweet young baby that does not deserve this type of life. But until the mother is capable of leaving the child is stuck there.

just_babbling_broke wrote:

I'm sure you don't mean that the way it is written.

Let me try and word that a tad better.

I don't want to know what I can do to force her to go one way or the other, but rather I want to know what I can do for myself, because watching this and seeing both of them go through this, is destroying me.

There, that's more what I was trying to get across.

J_B wrote:

I noticed you included prayer in your post above. Do you have a spiritual advisor that you trust? Does she?

I do not have a spiritual advisor per se. I just recently found that I believe in spirituality, and until a year ago I questioned whether there was a God at all. Now I don't want to go deep into that at this point, but for my own personal belief, I do believe in God, and I do talk to him and ask for his guidance in all this. However I have not found a spiritual advisor of any sort, nor have I actually looked. As for her, I know she goes to church on a semi-regular basis, but she is not very spiritual by nature, and I do not believe she has one either. Nor do I even delude myself for one second to think that if she had a spiritual advisor that her husband would allow her to talk to that person without him being present.

J_B wrote:

but you can only do so much.

This is the hardest pill for me to swallow. To be so utterly powerless in all this is something I have to adjust to, and it's hard because I really just want to see things work out best for her and her daughter, no matter what best means.

I guess I am a tad obsessed with this situation because her situation is identical to one I saw 13 years ago with a very close and dear friend of mine. I was younger then, and much more foolish. But I tried to be a good friend to this other person as well as I am trying now. After 16 years of friendship, she came to me for advise on how to handle an abusive person, I gave her what I thought was the best advise for all involved including herself. My advise, which she took because she trusted me so much, cost her her life. And I have carried around that guilt and that shame for the last 13 years. I will not, cannot, watch that happen again.

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Random Acts wrote:

Her family is excessively abusive, to the point that her father has nearly killed her mother on multiple occassions, so they would be no better for the child than her current situation. In fact they would be worse.

Oh shoot.

The cycle moves on. From that generation, to the next, and the next, etc.

Did you tell this to anyone you have spoken to, at any of the help lines? It certainly changes a few things. Especially in the advice given to you concerning how to help her.

You are right about her child. As much as you wish to see the child removed from this environment, there is not a great deal you can do at the moment. Possibly later on there will be though. Wrong moves in these cases can be devastating. As heart wrenching as it is .... you can't just scoop the child up and place her in a protective environment. But you can work very hard on helping the child's mother, so she can break this cycle that sets both Mom and Child free.

There is a very good author by the name of Beverly Engel. She has written some fabulous books, two of which might be a Godsend to you if you will take the time to read them and then pass them on to your friend. Tell her it might not be a bad idea if she keeps them hidden from her husband and only reads them while he is at work.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/heavens_just_a_kiss_away/4918675.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/heavens_just_a_kiss_away/4518665.jpg

Let me know if you need anything.

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I know Brooke talks sense, and knows what she is talking about. Smile

Still, it is truly heartbreaking to think that the child is the one suffering for all of this.

Depending on where you live, there are options for swooping in and taking the child to somewhere safe. The situation doesn't need to be full on beatings. And in some cases, I believe it is the best option.
Maybe not something for this baby. I don't know.
It's never an easy decision to take a child away from their mother, even temporarily, but sometimes it saves a kid a lifetime of hell.

My point in bringing in someone to advocate for the child (an unbiased third party)...even if the best option is for the child to remain with the mother in these circumstances, or the only real option...is threefold.
1. It could wake the mother up to the reality of the danger she placing her child in.
Sometimes a person can not find a scrap of compassion or love for themself, but when it becomes clear that it is an issue about their child: they are able to dig deep and reconsider the situation.
It could well be she is not even considering this right now: how can she? she is wrapped up in herself.
2. It will give you support, and an unbiased third party to help keep an eye on the situation and to ensure the child's safety. Someone to be a mediator, a place for your friend to turn to as well, and a source of information.
If the situation escalates, there are real concequences for the mother beyond herself. And the child won't be forgotten in the mess.
3. The child is helpless and was born to a family caught in a sick cycle of abuse. She deserves someone to care about her enough to give her a voice.

It is not right to shoo-shoo this off by saying 'oh it is sad, but there is nothing we can do. Of course there is !
I noticed defensiveness when you responded to my post about the baby.
Why?

I know before even pressing send that this post is going to be largely ignored and I'll be countered with soft hushing explanations for why I am wrong.
But it is simple. A kid does not deserve this. Beyond all the systems and adult crap, the legalities and delicate tos and fros of trying to support the mother in getting out, it is simple. Adults are pissing around and allowing a child to take the fall out. It doesn't matter how you explain it away, or the excuses for keeping her there. It all boils down to she is being left there and being programmed to abused in her future. She is no receiving what she needs, and she is suffering.

Honestly, it all makes me sick. The shame any of you have is correct, bc what is happening is wrong.

- -- Now, I'm taking a break from these forums. _ --

Sincere good luck and wishes in finding a way for yourself to stay strong and happy, and to help your friend where you can. She IS lucky to have someone to care, and to be a witness to her life and feelings. Take care.

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Not shushing you in the least flushd. You come to this topic with a passion and background that is your own, as do we all. I totally understand being in total disagreement with the 'consensus position' and feeling the need to step back and breathe. I've done it myself. Your feelings and passions are as valid as anyone elses.

The child is brought into this situation due to no fault of her own. and without intervention the cycle oftentimes repeats generation after generation. RA is trying to help break the cycle with the mom, but I don't think he can take it upon himself to swoop in and remove the child. It's difficult to span a chasm by taking baby steps, but giant leaps aren't always possible.

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flushd wrote:

I know before even pressing send that this post is going to be largely ignored and I'll be countered with soft hushing explanations for why I am wrong.

Wrong. I don't have time for soft, hushing explanations, as you call it. Nor are cases like this time for pissing matches, or whatever else you think your post will get you.

Flushd, I'm sorry that you don't think I, or RA, don't care about the child, or see the plight of the child. You are probably even thinking that because I lost a child in my abusive relationship, that I would surely see the danger for this one.

The reality of it is, as much as even I, a stranger to the child, am crying inside for this child .... there is still a right way and a wrong way to handle these delicate situations.

If physical abuse had already begun in this household, I would take my friend as soon as I found out, and if I couldn't get her out of the house and to a safety zone, I would take my own pictures of her battered body for evidence of the abuse and get Child Protective Services, the cops and anyone else in my path, on the band wagon and I would not stop until the child was out of there. Actually to be honest with you, I would probably do something stupid and take the child myself. Of course then I would be had for kidnapping.

Sad it is, but this world we live in does not understand emotional abuse as well as it does physical. And as much as physical abuse cases are largely ignored, emotional abuse cases are even more so.

This is why I wish for RA to be in contact with the abuse hotlines. They understand this and can help him to stay calm and react calmly and not let his emotions for the child's safety do something to actually make matters worse for the little soul he is so desperately wanting to protect.

You can't just call the protective authorities and expect that they will believe what you say. They will investigate though. Bad thing is, everyone will of course be on their best behavior. Proving emotional abuse is going to be very hard if the mother will not admit it to the authorites. Now, you know as well as I do, she is not going to do that. She's not only in denial herself, but at that point, she will be in fear of them taking her child from her. She will lie to any degree she has to, to keep her baby. And I'll tell ya, I have seen some cases handled by CPS that would make you literally vomit. Many times our perception on how to handle things are far removed from theirs. But I know they have their own set of strict guidelines to follow before they can actually remove a child from their home.

In the meantime, RA will have accomplished his friend being isolated from him. He can report this case using anonymity and hope she never finds out it was him. But he's the one that is probably trying the hardest right now, to get her to leave him. He has probably expressed this fear for the child. In that case, she will direct her suspicion in his direction and poof be gone. He'll be history. He will never again know what is going on in that household because 9 chances out of 10, he will have permanently lost his friend. So what about the child now? Who is going to help her now? Who is going to be the third set of eyes that watch over her? And what about the emotional abuse now? Sadly, the husband will more then likely be mad enough, he could easily snap and beat the holy crap out of her. Maybe kill her, maybe kill the child.

Is that how it all ends? Dear God in heaven, I would hope not. But it has ended that way, many times.

RA, for the love of the child, please get the abuse hotline counsellors to direct you on this matter.

I'm sorry, but I still say that the best way RA can help the child is through helping the mother come to her own senses. And as quickly as possible. The only way he can do that is by keeping the friendship intact. And lovingly but not forcefully, getting her to see the dangers of this situation. Getting her in touch with a trained counsellor that is adept in handling these situations. Getting her confidence built up so she can leave. So she wants to leave.

And flushd, God bless your darling little heart. I do sooooo understand what you are saying and what you are feeling. You probably have as natural a love for children as I do. And it doesn't matter whose they are, you only want to protect them. I wish it were just cut and dry. A child should never be in danger inside their home ..... with parents that should be teaching them all about love. Crying or Very sad

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flushd wrote:

I noticed defensiveness when you responded to my post about the baby.
Why?

Because this child, whom i love as if it were one of my own, is so important to me, and after talking to abuse counselor and the people @ 1-800-799-SAFE, it has become obvious and clear that because of the type of abuse currently occurring, because of the lack of any evidence of this abuse, unless the mother comes forward, and because the mother will not seek help, there is no current way to help this child and it's tearing me apart.

I watch after this child, from my stand point, on every occassion I can. I make excuses to see the child so that I can ensure she is doing well. If anyone ever was an advocate for this child and concerned about her situation, it would be me. And if I saw even a sliver of hope to get this child out without needing the mother to do the same, I would jump at it.

It's hard to see a situation and accept the thought,there is nothing I can do to help this person at this time, it's the situation I fight everyday while watching this. But I get defensive because I really do care and love this child, and have gone down every avenue to see if there is anything at all I can do to help. I find that every road I try turns into a dead end rather quick and it's frustrating.

I am not hushing you in any way, your concerns for this child, or any child in this situation are valid and sincere, but please know that for as many concerns you have and for the desire you have to help this child, mine concerns and desires are equally, if not far greater, passionate because I know and love her.

justa_babbling_brooke wrote:

I'm sorry, but I still say that the best way RA can help the child is through helping the mother come to her own senses. And as quickly as possible.

As hard as it is to accept, because we all want to believe that there is a magic phrase or word we can say to wake people up, I do believe that you are right in this brooke. I have to stay the course, no matter how much it hurts, because I know that if she loses her ties to me, and I to her, then the only true support she has right now is gone, and I shudder to think what will happen to her and her daughter if that should occur.

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Quote:

As hard as it is to accept, because we all want to believe that there is a magic phrase or word we can say to wake people up, I do believe that you are right in this brooke. I have to stay the course, no matter how much it hurts, because I know that if she loses her ties to me, and I to her, then the only true support she has right now is gone, and I shudder to think what will happen to her and her daughter if that should occur.

Quote:

During the beginning and middle stages of this type of relationship, nothing that is said to them about their situation does anything but make them angry at the person expousing the advice or insight. They feel resentment towards that person for ragging on, or belittling someone they care about. They also feel ashamed, though at the time most do not know or at least cannot acknowledge it, because they are allowing this type of a cycle to continue when they know inside that it's not what they deserve nor is it a changable thing.

Don't you see a connection here? I tried to make this point earlier. If you continue to try to make her come to her senses, she will get sick of your advice and start to resent you. Then she will not want to hear your help altogether, and then you will have nothing left to do but "shudder to think what will happen to her."

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Confused and frustrated...

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