SHOULD POLICE AUTO CHASES BE CURTAILED?

By the way, I saw a photo of a police vehicle in the US (I think it was only a trial one). It had a pod on the front of it, that had a projectile launcher in the front of it - it was armed with some high voltage electric head that was mean to fry a cars circuits and disable the car...that'd be interesting to see in use, though I'm not sure how effect it'd be (like what range and accuracy it has). If it works, it'd help eliminate chases (or at least decrease the duration of them).

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Interesting! I would have to think about that one.

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Strangely enough...having mentioned that car in the US, my local paper has just run a story of a similar one being trialled by the local police, except the pod in the front of the car has a GPS transmitter (rather than an electrical impulse device)

Ah, found the online version of the story :

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22955879-3102,00.html

and the photo :

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/1,9211,5811181,00.jpg

Quote:

QUEENSLAND police could soon be employing the latest in cutting-edge technology in the fight against the state's spiralling road toll.

Developed by the National Safety Agency in conjunction with partners including Holden, Motorola and Monash University's Accident Research Centre, the Emergency Services Concept Car is set to revolutionise the way police enforce the laws of the road.

Using a VE Commodore supplied by Holden, the concept car incorporates some of the most advanced communications, surveillance, audio visual and network technology.

Check out the police car's featuresNSA director of operations Des Bahr said the project was initially intended to address problems with heat and power management within existing emergency vehicles.

"We spoke to police and firefighters nationally and other groups that have a lot of technology and found out it was a common issue," he said.

The team solved the problem by replacing several single devices with a powerful all-in-one computer which quickly relays information to the user.

Voice recognition software allows police to use the computer while keeping their hands on the wheel.

Front and rear cameras beam real-time footage to communications centres where a supervisor can monitor the car's speed and position, enabling better and safer co-ordination of pursuits.

An automatic number plate recognition camera on the roof is capable of detecting and reading the licence plates of passing vehicles.

Queensland Police patrolling the states' motorways could use the camera to pinpoint the licence plate of a wanted vehicle out of hundreds of cars.

A recent trial of the technology in Los Angeles found that the camera is capable of scanning 5000 to 8000 cars in a 10-hour session.

It can be used for a variety of traffic policing applications including identifying speed violations by calculating the time a vehicle takes to travel between two points, identifying unregistered vehicles, and the tracking of vehicles and drivers subject to traffic restrictions such as provisional licence holders.

The futuristic police car is capable of firing a dart with an embedded GPS transponder into a suspect vehicle.

Police can track the offender on their on-board computer and follow from a safe distance, avoiding dangerous pursuits.

The concept vehicle is being tested by emergency service agencies nationally to determine the suitability of the technology in the field, and Mr Bahr said the Queensland Police Service had shown interest.

Mr Bahr said the ESCV would improve safety.

"By providing them with greater real-time support and decision-making tools (police) are more effective in enforcing traffic and making the road a safer place," he said.

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As happens about every two weeks, the Charlotte Observer published a piece about an innocent person being killed as a result of, what I think, an unjustified, high-speed, auto chase.

ROWAN COUNTY
Teen convicted of murder in fatal crash
Driver was fleeing police when he hit car; sentenced to 11-13 years
SHARIF DURHAMS
[email protected]
A Rowan County teen accused of leading police on a car chase that ended in a fatal wreck was found guilty of second-degree murder Thursday.

Chris Crocker was just shy of 16 years old on the morning of Aug. 9, 2006, when he obscured the letters on a Ford truck's license plate with tape, according to authorities.

Wearing ripped jeans and a T-shirt, Crocker drove the truck to a service station, filled it with gas and left without paying, police later said.

The gas station's owner said he jumped into a sport utility vehicle and chased Crocker's truck. Crocker then pointed a handgun at the gas station owner's vehicle, the owner said at the time.

Police joined a high-speed chase through at least three eastern Rowan cities and towns. Crocker eventually swerved into the oncoming lane on Bringle Ferry Road and crashed into a car driven by Marshall Ruth Ludwick, 65. Ludwick died instantly.

But the chase wasn't over. Crocker jumped out of the truck and ran into nearby fields, according to police. He was found hiding in a shed, according to sheriff's deputies.

Family members of Crocker and Ludwick were in a Salisbury courtroom Thursday when Superior Court Judge Chris Collier sentenced Crocker, now 17, to spend 11 to 13 years in prison.

"It's a sad day for everybody, particularly with a kid that age," said Rowan County District Attorney William Kenerly, who prosecuted the case.

Kenerly added that Crocker's behavior during the chase, as authorities described it to him, "was one of the worst I've seen."

Crocker testified during the three-day trial, apologizing to Ludwick's family. Jurors also heard from a doctor who said Crocker expressed remorse about the chase and that Crocker had attention deficit disorder, which made him impulsive and sometimes led to bad decisions, Kenerly said.

Crocker has spent the past 17 months in juvenile facilities in Taylorsville and near Fayetteville, Kenerly said. He'll get credit for that time served.

A letter read to jurors from a worker at one of the juvenile facilities said Crocker was an obedient and helpful inmate, the district attorney said.

Before the trial, Crocker pleaded guilty to charges related to his speeding during the chase and to pointing a gun while the gas station's owner chased him in a sport utility vehicle, Kenerly said.

Crocker's attorney gave notice she would appeal the murder verdict. Crocker will remain in custody.

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You don't want police to chase people who : steal, and then threaten the person they stole from with death by way of a handgun?

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I think there needs to be a balance of wishing to apprehend a criminal, vs risk.

Surely it is better to let a car thief go than to kill or maim some poor bastard just driving along? Ditto re chases that end up with the thief dead, and many other drivers endangered, or the coppers injured or dead.

I suspect, in practice, that some chases end up going too far because the people chasing, and those being chased, are often young men with more hormones than sense.

A friend of mine was hit and seriously injured by a police car that ran a stop sign, in a network of tiny streets with no visibility. They were travelling so fast that by the time she even HEARD a siren, she was injured and trapped in her car. She THINKS she may have seen the car they were pursuing, as there was an impression of a blur in front of her before she was hit.

The cops were very shocked, of course, but she recalls them talking in their car for some time before they came over to check on her (they were unhurt, fortunately). They appear to have been following the old rule of "get your story straight", because their first words to her were to become quite aggressive and try to get her to say it was her fault. Given that she had serious chest injuries, she wasn't saying anything.....but she had to get a lawyer to handle the police department's attempt to blame her (she "failed to stop for an emergency vehicle"). She was later issued with a formal apology.

The following week, a woman received critical injuries in similar circumstances...as I recall, she lived, but I believe there was permanent disability. There have also been numbers of people killed by criminals in chased cars, too. Now, car thieves llike to drive wildly, but they are even more reckless when being pursued.

I know cops make extraordinarily hard decisions, often when they are little more than kids, and with an adrenaline hit that must be like a shot of speed...

{I can still see the hands of the cops that pulled guns on us when we had just defused a domestic violence incident next door....(the cops got lost looking for the house, and took so long to get there that we dealt with it ourselves)....they were shaking so much that the gun muzzles were describing, I swear, a six inch arc in our faces. I was quite worried they were going to shoot us accidentally! Anyhoo, I completely understood their fear, and their consequent aggression ( the LANGUAGE, my dear!)}

.....but it is not a mix for good decision making. I also understand and appreciate the intent re catching a criminal (though, for a number of the young guys, I think a chase is pure excitement....I have known a LOT of cops... :wink: )

However, I do think their protocols need to err on the side of caution, and they be trained well in weighing up risk

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vikorr wrote:

You don't want police to chase people who : steal, and then threaten the person they stole from with death by way of a handgun?

Wow, he stole a whole tank of gas! When the owner of the gas station faced him, it was pretty obvious the thief was identifiable through his license plate. Thus, the chase, leading to the usual disaster, was not warranted.

Do you think the chase was worth the death of an innocent woman?

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Hi Advocate :

What makes you so sure he was identifyable through his licence plate? It takes a minute to screw plates off one car, and a minute to screw them on your own car.

Further, you totally ignored the fact that he pulled a gun on a person, which was the main offense. Concentrating on the theft of gas is a form of minimisation.

Worth a life? That too is a misleading question. The loss of life in any circumstances is sad - even more so for the people involved in a loss of life during a police chase...the question is do the risks justify the danger to the public? That's not a question that's answerable after the fact - it has to be answerable beforehand. Beforehand, you can only talk about risks...because a death isn't a certainty.

Is it worth the risk to the public to pursue a person who has stolen gas, then pulled a gun on the owner of the petrol station? Considering pointing a gun at a person - their actions say "You come closer I'll murder you", and is in fact a 1/2 second short of murder - in my opinion, yes the risks taken are justified.

You are of course, welcome to have a different view.

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It is my guess that the miscreant could have been identified and picked up later. But this is a guess, since the article doesn't go into this.

Pointing the gun is significant, but in my view doesn't justify a high-speed chase wherein there is a high risk of someone dying or being badly injured, often an innocent party. In the instant case, an innocent woman was killed. What was her life worth? It is my view that the police love these chases, being a macho thing. Innocent lives being lost has a low priority to them.

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Quote:

But this is a guess, since the article doesn't go into this.

Thank you for acknowledging that this is a guess.

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Pointing the gun is significant, but in my view doesn't justify a high-speed chase wherein there is a high risk of someone dying or being badly injured, often an innocent party.

Fair enough. We can differ on that view.

Quote:

It is my view that the police love these chases, being a macho thing. Innocent lives being lost has a low priority to them.

Another guess, from three perspectives. 1 that officers love the chases, 2 that it's a macho thing, and 3 that they don't particularly care about innocenct people dying.

A very sweeping judgement. Have you ever talked to police about this? On what basis did you form your opinion? From sensationalism in the papers? The fact that chases happen? From first hand experience? Or talking to them?

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I'm giving my opinion based on what I read and heard. I have seen on TV interviews with the police regarding various chases, and they say in so many words that there shouldn't be limits. BTW, we have many TV programs that are about these chases, which feature videos. I inferred that the police enjoyed the chases and were quite proud of running down a chased person. They thought that accompanying disasters were just the price that had to be paid.

I gather you have no problem with the chases.

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Thanks for letting me know where your opinion comes from - that makes sense now.

Quote:

I gather you have no problem with the chases.

Advocate, I've said many times in this thread, it depends on the circumstances. I've also said many times that I agree they shouldn't occur over minor matters.

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v --

The govt. has to set standards for when a chase is commenced, and not just say that there will be no chases for "minor" reasons. So what would your standards say?

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I had thought it obvious that, as I think minor offenses don't warrant a chase - if this were to be enforced, that the Govt would have to be the one to set the standards. Probably the policy/legislation (whatever) would have to be set up by an independant think tank - in consultation with police, victims of crime bodies, and I would say victims of pursuits but I doubt there is any such formal group, and any other relevant party, as well as taking into account any research done so far...and possibly even commission further research, as well as ongoing evaluation after the policy/legislation is in place.

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In the USA, various places have standards. E.g., one might be that a chase is allowed only if there is good evidence that the person committed a felony involving physical harm. A chase for, say, driving erratically would not be allowed. Etc.

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I gather that your tennis tournament is going very well, and that the new surface is a big improvement. Are there any Aussies still competing?

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There's still one or two still competing. Leyton Hewitt is the highest ranked of the Aussies, but he's struggling - I doubt he'll win his next game, which will be against either Marit Safin, or the fellow that beats Safin. If he makes it to the Semi's, he'll likely have to face Federer. I don't think we have much hope this year. Unfortunately our tennis talent hasn't been particularly strong for the last two decades or so.

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I always liked Hewitt. I guess he is having trouble with today's big hitters.

There is a large dark-skinned guy, whose name escapes me, whom I think is an Aussie. He could make a big breakthrough.

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Mark Phillipousis - he's way more talented than Hewitt, but he's never appeared to have the concentration and dedication (probably more the dedication) to go further. He's also had a constant stream of injuries the last few years, and it'd surprise me a little if he ever got back into the top rankings.

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I wasn't thinking of Mark, who is in the senior league. I'll check the paper and see if I can find the other guy, and then letl you know.

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SHOULD POLICE AUTO CHASES BE CURTAILED?

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