ARE THERE DOUBTS ABOUT THE "HOLOCAUST"...

real life wrote:

Joe Nation wrote:
What is undeniably true,
and will be wondered at by humans twenty generations from now,
is that millions of humans have been killed by millions of other humans because they did not believe in the same made-up nonsense
about which god's son did or didn't die
or which god had two heads or six arms
or which god's name was so holy that it couldn't be said out loud
or which god had chosen which extra extra special humans
to be the sole and unerring witnesses of it's glory and love
all while they slaughtered everyone in non-agreement
with sword
or gun
or bomb.

A pox on all your houses of falsity.

I say to all believers, if even one person has died due to the actions of an adherent of your sect you are just as guilty of that murder as the perpetrator.

You all speak the same words in your heart as Mel Gibson, you just change the slur to match your own belief.

So much for the glory.

Joe( Peace will not come from the pages of any scripture)Nation

So, Joe, do you then accept responsibility for all the deaths of atheist regimes such as the Soviet Union, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Communist China, etc , which were carried out to force adherence to the party line i.e. mandated atheism, 'sharing' of all property, etc ?

To be consistent, you must. But of course, you won't.

Even though atheism is the bedrock of communism, you will weasel away from your comrades into the dark, claiming no responsibility.

How do you answer this Joe, Tai, and Wilso?

Should atheist's accept responsibility for such things?

Or do they get a pass?

Juuuust wondering!

I'll put it to you in Joe's words in which you say ditto and Amen..

"I say to all non believers in God (atheists), if evenone person has died due to the actions of an adherent of your sect you are just as guilty of that murder as the perpetrator. "

Can I get an Amen now?

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millions

real life wrote:

Millions of Jews died in the Holocaust.

So did millions of others, many of them Christian.

The Holocaust happened, but it was not exclusively Jews who died.

I was treating the "Halocaust" as a Jew thing..does it mean million others died also?

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Real life asked with a little assist, to assuage his guilt, from Bartikus :

Quote:

So, Joe, do you then accept responsibility for all the deaths of atheist regimes such as the Soviet Union, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Communist China, etc , which were carried out to force adherence to the party line i.e. mandated atheism, 'sharing' of all property, etc ?

To be consistent, you must. But of course, you won't.

Even though atheism is the bedrock of communism, you will weasel away from your comrades into the dark, claiming no responsibility.

You don't know me very well, do you?

You'd like to think I see these horrors you mention as somehow different than the horrors made by believers in god, but I don't. You do. You think that killing masses of people for some supernatural hoodoo is more noble than the unspeakable acts committed by some regimes out of their fears and greed. I don't. I see them as the same. The same naked aggression seen in humans for 100,000 years.

You're the ones looking for the weaseling escape clause:
"Our actions were mandated by God's Law',
'We did as the Lord commanded',
'These were holy acts.",
"We burned them to save their souls."

The millions killed are still as dead as the ones killed for simple human stupidity and avarice, they just have the added icing of being killed by followers of fantasy.

Of course, that is what does make the believers's killings worse, at least it would to most outside observers, one would think that there would be amongst believers less of a tendency to act like simple humans. They have been blessed, according to there own testimony, by a connection to something beyond this reality. So it comes as a real surprise that those so touched as just as vicious, if not more so, than the unblessed.

It does point out the factiousness of it all.

At the least, with the unblessed we have a chance to change their minds, to remind them that humanity can move forward without violence, with the blessed it is more difficult because they think they are doing some god's work and will not be deterred until they kill you or you kill them.

Joe(But we try. Humanity depends upon it.)Nation

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Humans are territorial, meaning, they will fight for the concept, even if the territories, such as religion, are imaginary (imaginary concepts can be larger than real ones in the mind). They will murder one another despite the dictates of better sense.

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Holocaust deniers interest me in the following areas

1How do they process information in a way that is different from others?

2How do they evaluate evidence and justify their beliefs that something did not occur despite mountains of data , photos , and worst of all, detailed records that were carefully maintained by the NAzis, who were, if anything, interested in accurate and detailed records.

3How can they learn from the lessons of history if they cant , at first, understand them?

The holocaust, to me, is the Nazis attempt at mass eugenics on several groups of people that included gypsies, homosexuals, several sects of Christians, people with disablities, certain intellectuals, as well as Jews. The total record is like 20 million people who were murdered.
Despite all the buildings full of recorded data and pictures by the Germans and the Allies (who liberated the camps) and which was used in the Nuremburg trials as evidence that was stipulated to.

My Uncle Ted was part of an engineering Batallion from Ft Belvoir. He was busy , during the liberation of Europe, not even fighting, but being deployed in relatively safe post Liberation land rebuilding water and sewer plants in various cities of france and germany. However, His last duty was at a series of newly liberated death camps in Poland where (as he said) Their job was to set up temporary shelters and sanitary plants , along with Quartermaster battalions, and try to save the remaining prisoners (many of whom were too far gone by the time they were freed).
Uncle Ted would recount these stories to us kids during holiday gatherings (especially Thanksgiving where wed talk about what we were "thankful for"). Ted would speak of what he saw and almost always would begin crying, it had such a profound impact on the rest of his life. He died a few years ago and when we went to see him in the hospice , he still wanted to talk about it , almost as if hed never been able to successfully exhorcize those demons, even though he spent a post-war life being a bery loving and "christian" person. He was always everyones favorite uncle, mostly jolly, unmarried, drank too much, good to everyone .
My father, who fought in Burma and was very lucky to have been wounded and evacked from a certain negative outcome series of battles, always said that "Ted had seen too much in the European theater"

To those whove been deniers of the holocaust, dont ever try to sew your twisted beliefs to a veteran who served in that Theater. I dont think youd like their responses..

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bad

dalahow2 wrote:

Michael_S wrote:

Quote:
No reputable historian questions the reality of the Holocaust, and those promoting Holocaust denial are overwhelmingly anti-Semites and/or neo-Nazis

This is even worse than the Holocaust..coz it is happening in our own eyes..What is your opinion????????

or These headless babies, crushed people, destruction....................................This is baaaaaad

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Joe Nation wrote:

Real life asked with a little assist, to assuage his guilt, from Bartikus :

Quote:
So, Joe, do you then accept responsibility for all the deaths of atheist regimes such as the Soviet Union, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Communist China, etc , which were carried out to force adherence to the party line i.e. mandated atheism, 'sharing' of all property, etc ?

To be consistent, you must. But of course, you won't.

Even though atheism is the bedrock of communism, you will weasel away from your comrades into the dark, claiming no responsibility.

You don't know me very well, do you?

You'd like to think I see these horrors you mention as somehow different than the horrors made by believers in god, but I don't. You do. You think that killing masses of people for some supernatural hoodoo is more noble than the unspeakable acts committed by some regimes out of their fears and greed. I don't. I see them as the same. The same naked aggression seen in humans for 100,000 years.

You're the ones looking for the weaseling escape clause:
"Our actions were mandated by God's Law',
'We did as the Lord commanded',
'These were holy acts.",
"We burned them to save their souls."

The millions killed are still as dead as the ones killed for simple human stupidity and avarice, they just have the added icing of being killed by followers of fantasy.

Of course, that is what does make the believers's killings worse, at least it would to most outside observers, one would think that there would be amongst believers less of a tendency to act like simple humans. They have been blessed, according to there own testimony, by a connection to something beyond this reality. So it comes as a real surprise that those so touched as just as vicious, if not more so, than the unblessed.

It does point out the factiousness of it all.

At the least, with the unblessed we have a chance to change their minds, to remind them that humanity can move forward without violence, with the blessed it is more difficult because they think they are doing some god's work and will not be deterred until they kill you or you kill them.

Joe(But we try. Humanity depends upon it.)Nation

Joe,

You've got more dodges than Detroit.

Do you or do you not, as a fellow atheist, accept responsibility for all the murders and atrocities committed to advance the cause of atheistic regimes in the Soviet Union, Communist China, etc ?

You are an atheist, so are they. By your earlier rant (and to remain consistent), it would seem that you would easily accept responsibility for this.

A simple yes or no will do.

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You've more than been answered, rl, and it is immaterial whether your persistent plaint to the contrary is due to denial or ignorance, whether you are unable or unwilling to make the connection; your posts in this regard do not attatch to reality.

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Joe Nation's manifesto is well-taken but hyperbolic.

I tried to reduce the blame from the world religions in general to their more superstitious and literalist/fundamentalist branches, but, of course, not all fundamentalists are guilty of inter-group murderous aspirations.

The same can be said of Edgar's valid reference to territoriality. Trilbal societies characteristically used "terrorism" to maintain tribal territorial boundaries, in far as I know their tribal (non-universal/world) religions had little to do with it. The use of universal/world religions as justification for inter-group slaughter seems to pertain more to nation-states.

I consider the greed inherent in capitalism to be another factor in a rounded explanation of man's inhumanity to man. Even slavery was essentially a capitalist venture. But not all capitalists are of the rapacious sort. We see that with Soros, Turner and other "liberal" capitalists (mainly capitans of industry who gain little or nothing from war).

The problem is multi-dimensional so we should not be impressed by uni-dimensional explanations--ilnclulding mine.

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I've bean wandering, are mormons the 13th tribe?

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The denial of the Holocaust is one of the most important issues I know that underlines the importance of History. Many people find history irrelevant, such as Henry Ford (History is bunk).
The sad truth is that history is often enough used as an excuse and motivation for certain actions. There is a nationalist penchant for looking back at a nations 'great deeds'. And in such occasions, the less glorious pages of history are often overlooked.

So with the holocaust. Neonazis and other racists often claim it did not happen, because this fits much better in their view of the world, and more specifically, nazi Germany. And it's quite easy to simply state: "I don't believe what you say about it, because I know it didn't happen." Soon, the pictures are falsified, a point is made that no papers are around that show evidence of these camps ever having existed...

Denying what has happened actually means denying what could happen. Discarding the past means casting away your roots, and you become adrift in a confusing sea of cultures, without a clear sense of where you come from and where you are going to.
Whenever any group (or scientist for that manner... they are not excused by reason of their vocation) claims a specific view of history, question its motives. If you find their view of history a. Is different from a generally accepted mainstream variant and b. Seems to be conveniently tailored to provide arguments or grounds for a (political) message this group wishes to bring to the world... suspect it.

The Iran government has political grounds to take away any 'sympathy claims' on regard of the jews. This in order to justify their own harsh statements regarding Israel and their not so secret funding of several 'rabid' anti Israel organizations. Hence, their 'denial of the Holocaust' is politically motivated and by that reason alone highly suspect.

BTW. I for one do not doubt the Holocaust.

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Often it is insinuated , or even asserted openly that 'Hitler was a Christian' and blame is often assigned to Christians for his works.

Interesting article.

from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=399470&in_page_id=1770

Quote:

Jewish references erased in newly found Nazi Bible
14:47pm 7th August 2006

An institute in Germany has unearthed a Nazi bible ordered by Adolf Hitler to replace the old and new testaments expunged of all references to Jews.

Hitler's race theorists even rewrote the 10 commandments and added two more for good measure in the book called 'German with God' which was - alongside Hitler' s autobiography - meant to be required reading in every home in his Third Reich.

Thou shalt not kill, coveting one's neighbour's wife, thou shalt not steal and all other others were scrapped by a regime that stole, murdered and plundered its way across the world.

Hitler admired the ceremony and majesty of the church - he admitted as much in Mein Kampf - but hated its teachings which had no place in his vision of Germanic supermen ruling lesser races devoid of 'outdated' concepts such as mercy and love.

But he knew the power of the church in Germany and even he could not banish it overnight. He was even forced to abandon the systematic murder of the handicapped and insane before the war when outspoken bishops began to speak against it.

Instead his plan was to gradually 'Nazify' the church beginning with a theological centre he set up in 1939 to rewrite the Holy Bible. He appointed lackey professors to work on a thoroughly Nazi version that would remove all references to Jews and all compassion.

Their brief: 'The cleanse church texts of all non-Ayran influences.' The first to go were the 10 Commandments. The Nazi 12 run: "Honour God and believe in him wholeheartedly. Seek out the peace of God. Avoid all hypocrisy. Holy is your health and life! Holy is your wellbeing and honour! Holy is your truth and fidelity! Honour your father and mother - your children are your aid and your example. Keep the blood pure and your honour holy! Maintain and multiply the heritage of your forefathers. Always be ready to help and to forgive. Honour your Fuehrer and master! Joyously serve the people with work and sacrifice. That is what God wants from us!" More important for Hitler, however, was the eradication of Jewish words, including Hallelulja, Jehova and even Jerusalem - it was instead termed the ' the eternal city of God.' "The book will have to serve the fight against the immortal Jewish enemy!" said Hitler in a memorandum to the institute in Eisenach.

Hansjoerg Buss of the Nordelbischen Church Office discovered the Bible in an archive search.

It was printed in 1941 by a company in Weimar and was shipped out to thousands of churches across Nazi-occupied Europe. It is understood most have been destroyed.

The name of the office Hitler created to shape the Bible in his image was the 'Institute for the research and removal of the Jewish influence on German church life.' One of the major tasks was to ignore Jesus' Jewish roots and turn him into an Ayran. Other words specifically banned by Hitler's race-haters were Zion, Hosanna, Galilee and Moses.

One order found in the archives for a special exhibition in Eisenach of the institute's bizarre work came from Walter Grundmann, the anti-Semitic director appointed by Hitler.

He wrote in 1941: "The Bible must become Jew-free and the German people must see that the Jews are the mortal enemy who threaten their very existence."

Hymn books were also trawled and 'Ayranised' with no references to make the party elite balk during the few times they were ever likely to find themselves in a Christian church.

At its height, a team of 50 worked on re-writing hymn books and the Bible. But it was all a charade as far as Hitler and his S.S. chief Heinrich Himmler were concerned.

Both dreamed of being overlords of an essentially pagan society where the only virtues to be praised were iron hardness and a capability to obey any order, no matter what. "Human kindess and the moral compass as set by the Bible were laughable to them," said Ulrich Messner, a Nazi expert.

The King James Bible is a little under 800 pages in paperback form. The Nazi 'Bible' was 750 pages, after the references to Jews had been banished and Nazi "improvements" added.

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timberlandko wrote:

Its not so much religion per se, but rather more the perversion, the all-too-easy perversion - of religious tenets that foments problems. Some folks'll do anything if they can be convinced its their god's will, and some folks are easily convinced.

I agree with this.

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hey

najmelliw wrote:

Denying what has happened actually means denying what could happen. Discarding the past means casting away your roots, and you become adrift in a confusing sea of cultures, without a clear sense of where you come from and where you are going to.

The Iran government has political grounds to take away any 'sympathy claims' on regard of the jews. This in order to justify their own harsh statements regarding Israel and their not so secret funding of several 'rabid' anti Israel organizations. Hence, their 'denial of the Holocaust' is politically motivated and by that reason alone highly suspect.

BTW. I for one do not doubt the Holocaust.

For one quick assertion:Do you mean we will deny Lebanon/Palestinian stories later...as "halocaust"....

The Iran Government doesn't know a country called Israel in it's context..Does that mean...Some Jews were brought from Britain and Germany to come start war with Land owners...Who are "Rabids"...as you said..

and who said "Christians" were killing "The Jews"......????

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Re: hey

dalahow2 wrote:

najmelliw wrote:

Denying what has happened actually means denying what could happen. Discarding the past means casting away your roots, and you become adrift in a confusing sea of cultures, without a clear sense of where you come from and where you are going to.

The Iran government has political grounds to take away any 'sympathy claims' on regard of the jews. This in order to justify their own harsh statements regarding Israel and their not so secret funding of several 'rabid' anti Israel organizations. Hence, their 'denial of the Holocaust' is politically motivated and by that reason alone highly suspect.

BTW. I for one do not doubt the Holocaust.

For one quick assertion:Do you mean we will deny Lebanon/Palestinian stories later...as "halocaust"....

The Iran Government doesn't know a country called Israel in it's context..Does that mean...Some Jews were brought from Britain and Germany to come start war with Land owners...Who are "Rabids"...as you said..

and who said "Christians" were killing "The Jews"......????

No, it does not mean we will deny Lebanon/Palestinian stories later on.
I have not made any statements about the current conflict, only about Iran and it's anti - Israel politics. In any war, there are always two guilty parties. Wars between 'innocent victims' and 'horrible oppressors' are virtually non-existant, regardless what propaganda wants to make you believe. This conflict is just the same. Israel does terrible things, but so does the Hezbollah.

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dalahow-do you deny Hezbollah's responsibility in this conflict?

I fail to see how the comparison of the denial of the holocaust with the present conflict in Lebanon have any points in common.

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As Farmerman has just said, I am having a really, really hard time seeing the relevance between the Holocaust (or denial of the Holocaust) and the present situation vis-a-vis the Israeli-Hesbollah conflict. I believe that dalahow2 is somehow sincere in his concern, but his arguments make no sense whatsoever. Whether or not the Holocaust happened (and only an idiot would believe that it did not happen), what in the world does that have to do with the present tragedy of the Near East? The points made by the poster are all non-sequiturs.

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A connection would not be too hard to make. The Holocaust was probably the major reason for the establishment of the state Israel. By denying it has ever happened, one could by interference deny that the state Israel has a right to exist. And this of course, combined by the recent heavy handed Israel tactics, are fuel to the anti-semitic fires raging in the coutries surrounding Israel.
It's propaganda war at it's finest. Twist the news/history in such a way that it seems to say what you want it to say, and broadcast it to the people.

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OK, but regardless of the Holocaust, the present situation has to be judged on its own terms. Israel has been a universally recognized nation, a UN member, since 1948. I suppose that, for the sake of argument, it might be possible to question the legitimacy of that government and that state. But to carry that argument to its logical conclusion, it would be morally legitimate and acceptable for all Mexican-Americans to begin slaughtering all non-Mexicans in California, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada and Colorado. And, if this were to occur, then the world at large should be sympathetic to the Mexican-Americans, not the rest of the population of those states. We should all be condemning the non-Mexicans for even living in those states. Is this a realistic view of the world and the way it should function?

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Valid to a certain point. Of course, there are grounds to defend the behavior of the 'mexican americans' slaughtering the 'non-mexicans', as you so eloquently put it.

But I have to say I think the words propaganda and logic do not have large overlapping areas of definition (and that is putting it kindly). Propaganda is not primarily aimed at the intellectuals. It is aimed at the massess. And it's meant to inflame by playing upon anger and hate and fear, not by appealing to logic and reason.

I think that both pro-Israel and pro-palestine parties can agree that the Middle east is not exactly a region that can be called 'realistic.'

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ARE THERE DOUBTS ABOUT THE "HOLOCAUST"...

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