Well, male rite of passage ceremonies can be pretty horrific.
Edit:
I don't wanna take this on now.
Gotta pick my battles.
When I first heard about this horrible practice, I couldn't believe it. I still find it absolutely astonishing and every detail (which I try to avoid knowing about) is worse & worse.
I've read that it is similar to cutting a male's penis, but that, I understand, is a slit, not a full-blown stripping of body tissue. Sick. And the worst, female genital mutilation is just as it sounds, and done so the individual won't enjoy sex. In some cases the girl is sown together as well, so that the men will enjoy it more, when she is older.
(Whoever would think this is what God wants?)
An eleven-year-old girl in Egypt died of seizures recently after one of these. It is just heart-breaking and so disgusting that I wish I had never, ever heard of any of it. Once again, human beings shock me with the depths of their depravity.
geesh not many guys in this topic.
I don't see the similarity between removing a man's foreskin at a young age to removing the clitoris...
No, cav - although there is a form of the thing which involves a similar operation.
It is right, in my view, though, to call it genital mutilation rather than "female circumcision" because, generally speaking, the process is far more extensive and is designed, as stated above, to destroy female sexual pleasure and - presumably - ensure chastity and fidelity.
Unfortunately, these horrors become admired and seen as normal in their own cultures, as other practices have done in other cultures, including a couple I have mentioned as well as various forms of penile mutilation, some of which, in Australian Aboriginal societies, seem to have been designed as contraceptive methods.
I think it is correct that many male initiation torments are seen as entry into a desireable state, and may be borne with pride - I do not know if the young women so mutilated have any pride in their suffering.
Sadly, many of these female-directed practices have terrible effects upon a young woman's health, her experience of sex and child-birth etc, and continue to inflict terrible suffering throughout her life, as do the male attitudes which accompany them - when I said I had too much information I meant it, because I have friends who worked as health nurses/midwives with many such women in London and their stories of the physical and emotional torments of these women, especially around matters of hygiens, sexuality and birth were truly horrific - as frequently was their fate upon returning home to their husbands with fresh surgical wounds after giving birth, and with the husband having been apprised of the consequences of insisting on sex that night...
However, to say that something should be just banned is silly, in my view. I certainly think it should be banned in western countries - as it is here, but not before proponents of the practice argued, probably rightly, that it was better for young women to have the surgery performed in skilled hands by doctors rather than by traditional methods in unsafe and unclean circumstances. However - I think that, cultural respect and all, our countries are right to make laws about certain practices - like this, and slavery for example - which contradict the beliefs of certain people who come to our shores - and to prosecute those found guilty of inflicting them - although I recognize that this is a difficult and complex argument.
How to stop it in the countries in which it is endemic? Most actual governments do not particularly support it, I believe? I suppose it is much as domestic violence and child abuse was say fifty years ago in Oz and the USA - vaguely disapproved of by those with authority but seen as too difficult and complex to intervene in, as complex and difficult as we have, indeed, found it to be.
I would hope that education and knowledge of other ways of thought might gradually empower a new generation of women.
By the way - it may be instructive to look at things - like very high-heeled shoes - that western women still do to themselves because we like 'em - now, we know that the things are terrible for your feet, and your back, and pelvis etc - and will likely cause you pain in later years - but, those of you who wear them daily, how would you react if the Muslim world or African leaders tried to have them banned in the west?
I know they ar enot on the same level of seriousnes, but i think it reasonable to remember that appallingly damaging practices occur everywhere and are not easily seen as such by the people involved in them.
husker wrote:geesh not many guys in this topic.
I think GVM is absolutely horrible, and I actively research what we can do,
but after the first 500 tries I've learned to never explore ideas with a lynch mob.
Every group on Earth is put down, used and abused in thousands of ways. But when I point my finger at someone else, three of my fingers are pointing at myself. We swim in all these social patterns that everyone contributes to, all of us, so everyone has to be part of the solution too.
It's our problem to solve together for the benefit of everyone, together,
but male-bashing has severely damaged way too many people in my life.
Safety first, you know? I'm so tired... I'll do what I can on my own.
Phoenix32890 wrote:In early times, there was a monetary transaction- the dowry. The dowry is more or less obsolete, but how come the bride's folks are traditionally expected to pay for most of the wedding?
Phoenix, dowry works both ways. In India, etc. the bride's family pays the groom. In Arab countries the groom pays. Do you see this as the woman being bought either way?
cavfancier wrote:I don't see the similarity between removing a man's foreskin at a young age to removing the clitoris...
Cav, that is only the least severe form of female circumsision. It is also, unfortunately, the most rare.
I'm really glad I posted this topic, there is so much more to the subject than I had thought of before, and some really interesting views are coming out.
I liked the point made about the high-heeled shoes, and it is true, people are very often blind to what they are directly involved in. I mean, take relationships for example, everyone else around you can be saying how destructive it is, but you keep on going...and plastic surgery too, people will carry on and on and on until they are in fact mutilated..and this is itself a big western problem at the moment, psychologically, socially and physically...we have our very own set of problems!!
I'm not saying that these women are deluded into thinking this is a good thing, but may be at odds with a society and a surounding culture, their own psyches and those of their families and their subsequent honour.
We in the West are not so many years away when women were "sold" on a standard of beauty that was harmful to her. As a teenager, I owned a "girdle" (anybody remember those?) It had a satin panel on the front sides and back, and a zipper up the side. It had two inch thick steels in front, so as to flatten the belly.
If I went out to dinner, by the middle of it, I had to excuse myself and loosen my girdle, to prevent barfing all over my date. As far as high heeled shoes, many orthopedists say that many foot,back and leg problems can be traced back to the wearing of pointy toed high heeled shoes. The difference is , of course, that women were not mandated to wear this garb. But she certainly would have gotten strange looks if she had not!
Well, if the sociological explanation for anorexia nervosa be true, we be not removed from harmful practices at all - not to mention liposuction, implants, botox etc - all of which appear to have unpleasant sequelae in some - if not, down the track, all, people.
I still think the type of genital mutilation being discussed is waaaaaay up there, though.
Along and possibly greater even than foot binding - people DO realize this meant fracturing the feet, bending them back against themselves, and subsequent agonizing restriction (often leading to chronic infection) meaning one could never walk normally, and in many cases, be without pain, again?
Cher has had ribs removed, I believe.
Check out some of the weirdness in my second link. Whew!
I have a book downstairs that goes into this in great detail, possibly "Wombs and Alien Spirits" by Janice Boddy. (I definitely have that book, don't remember now if it's the one I'm thinking of.) In it, there is ample testimony from girls and women who do indeed have pride in their suffering. Certainly, certainly, not all. But it has been culturally ingrained to the point that some girls feel "unclean" if they haven't had it done, and "cleanliness" is a huge, huge part of those cultures that practice fgm.
I'll check out the book in a bit and report back.
soz- But isn't that exactly my point? Girls in that culture have been sold a "bill of goods" that they feel unclean unless they have been mutilated.
I remember, just a few years ago, that we were bombarded on TV for ads for feminine douches and sprays. The implicit message was that women were "dirty" unless they used a product to mask what is a natural odor. I have never seen similar products for men.
To a great extent, Western women have been socialized to believe that there is something "not quite right" about being female. Society has offered ways, through surgery, cosmetics, etc. to correct that deficiency, and therefore make a woman more "attractive" (ever think about what the word "attractive" REALLY means) to the opposite, and dominant sex.
I checked Amazon. 'Wombs and Alien Spirits" is the correct name, and Amazon has 26 sample pages that people can look at. Looks very interesting to me!
I definitely have that book, just don't know if it's the one I'm thinking of (i.e. if that book contains the passages I have in mind or if another book does.)
I was responding to dlowan's musing in her long response as to whether the girls/women felt any pride in their suffering.
