Jesus Christ and Homosexuality.

RexRed wrote:

echi wrote:

I'm trying to follow along, Rex.
I hope my directness is not perceived as hostility.

So, let's see...
"It is the spirit that reveals this hidden light..." I still don't understand what you mean by "spirit". I think it might help me if you replace "spirit" with a different word (or words), keeping the rest of the sentence as it is.
Reading over your short story , a couple pages back, I get the impression that the "spirit" (holy spirit) is like some kind of realization that accompanies or directs one towards a fuller awareness or awakening.

I look forward to your questions... I can tell (God has told me) that you are meek to his word... Those who question the senses are those who find the spirit.

Think of the holy spirit as "power", power for abundant life. Power as in, energy within matter.

The holy spirit was erroneously translated as the holy "ghost".

The holy spirit is not a ghost but it is a new identity that God creates within a soul.

This energy allows the soul to migrate from the physical into the eternal

This spirit is a "gift" from God the giver. It cannot become corrupted and it is spiritual light that can travel through the cosmos within an instant.

It is the essence of light and perception. It is a form of light that reveals all other froms of light and intelligence. The spirit is potential energy, this energy has the potential to reveal the physical in a new light. As this potential energy becomes kinetic the power of the spirit is manifested.

The spirit is eternal and everlasting. It is an image of creation itself.

So erase the idea that the holy spirit is a "ghost". This is not only erroneous but it is misleading. The holy spirit is YOU, that is the real you.

It is Christ in you, because Christ bore the same spiritual "image" of God within that we do. God is Holy Spirit and he gives the image gift (holy spirit, small "h" small "s") as the giver of that which he is.

God is the creator and he gives creation to others. The spirit is the change that only the eye of God can perceive within.

The spirit is the senses of God within versus the limited senses of our flesh.

You and I use different words, different symbols, but I still think our understanding is very similar. (Or maybe I have yet to understand the differences.)
The holy spirit enables the mind to realize the true nature of everything, which is called "Christ" or "Buddha". It is non-personal and non-created (timeless, eternal).
I don't understand what you mean when you describe God as "Creator". To me, "creation" is illusion. That which is eternal is not subject to "creation". That which is "created" is not real.

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My comments are in red

plainoldme wrote:

First of all, many branches of Christianity do not separate soul from spirit but consider them synonyms.

The importance is not what "many branches of Christianity" say it is what does the Bible say. The Bible distinguishes between body, soul and spirit from Genesis to Revelations.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Comment:
The word of God divides the differnece between soul and spirit. It also divides the difference between soul and body. Maybe more skeptics would believe the Bible if it was actually the Bible they were being taught.

Why does the Bible distinguish between the three (body, soul and spirit)? Why does the Bible distinguish between body and soul?

I would have to ignore this next verse in order to believe what many branches of Christianity have to say. Until they have an answer to why the Bible contradicts their teaching I am more inclined to take the motto of Jesus, "it is written" over "it is supposed".

1Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Second, I firmly believe that the Christian doctrine of heaven and hell is a distortion of the earlier doctrine of re-incarnation.

The Bible records that God created the heavens and the earth, hell/the grave must be some part of either or both.

Third, I do not believe that ghosts are the creation of the devil. Why give the devil that power? You seem to be out to scare yourself.

Some people give the devil more power than ghosts... they give the imaginations/illusions/delusions of the mind to extreme depths. It is unfortunate that some are so gullable to accept the devil's doctrines to the point that the the fear of their minds can create the reality they have bent their ear toward.

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Fine. I chose to not read comments written in red and interspersed with the original. However, consider that the original Baptists -- perhaps, the first religious liberals of modern times who drifted from their origins -- taught: that each person is to interpret the Bible according to their own understanding.

Besides, I consider the Bible a collection of short stories, geneologies, pseudohistories and poetry that is applied to religion.

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RexRed wrote:

Raul-7 wrote:
RexRed wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
It's this thread dragging Jesus down. I'm not the one with the hots for him.

Love and admiration does not have to always be sexual... Besides, true sexuality cannot exist outside of the spirit. UNCONDITIONAL LOVE cannot exist without the spirit. Without the spirit love becomes hypocrisy. For what is there to love within a person without the presence of God? In that case, love only becomes human ego.

God is the greatest lover. God is the "reason" for love.

"Agape" is the love of God, in the renewed mind and in manifestation.

For God so loved the world that he gave...

When you refer to God, do you mean Jesus (PBUH)?

I believe that Jesus Christ [PBUH] is part of God's [PBUH] creation and God is ultimately the creator.

Jesus being part of God's creation is also being part of God and his will. God worked through Jesus. Jesus is not God but to us, he is like God because he is above us all in mind and soul. Jesus is subject to God, the lamb is subject to the master.

The Creator creates creation, the Spirit inspires spirituality. (rexred)

The spirit is the essence of God as the spirit is in Jesus, as the spirit is in us.

The spirit is God's perfect gift of eternal life. It is potentially a NEW body.

For the body of the flesh could be killed of Jesus but the NEW body of the spirit cannot be killed by the people.

Quran 4:157-158
"And because of their saying, 'We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God' - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not (Jesus, son of Mary). But God raised him (Jesus) up unto Himself. And God is ever All-Powerful, All-Wise".

Comment:
Jesus received a NEW body that was in the image of God (spirit). God is spirit and God gives that which he is. We shall one day have this "new body" also.

Jesus was in the image of God just was we are in the image of God, (because of the spiritual reality likewise within). Jesus gave of himself as God has given of himself.

God Created Adam in his image in the book of Genesis, does that make Adam God? No. It speaks of the spirit/image that God created "upon" Adam, this spirit was what died in Adam the day he and Eve "sinned", Yet, their mortal bodies died on a later date.

Christ Jesus (the "man" God raised him up unto Himself) is the first born of the spirit and he makes this spirit (lost by Adam) available (in an unconditional manner, seed) to the average person who simply, "believes"...

Peace with God

Basically, Jesus (PBUH) is in the image of Adam (PBUH), as we will be in Heaven (may God will).

Then that begs the question, do you regard Jesus (PBUH) as the son of God or the believe in the Trinity?

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Raul-7 wrote:

RexRed wrote:
Raul-7 wrote:
RexRed wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
It's this thread dragging Jesus down. I'm not the one with the hots for him.

Love and admiration does not have to always be sexual... Besides, true sexuality cannot exist outside of the spirit. UNCONDITIONAL LOVE cannot exist without the spirit. Without the spirit love becomes hypocrisy. For what is there to love within a person without the presence of God? In that case, love only becomes human ego.

God is the greatest lover. God is the "reason" for love.

"Agape" is the love of God, in the renewed mind and in manifestation.

For God so loved the world that he gave...

When you refer to God, do you mean Jesus (PBUH)?

I believe that Jesus Christ [PBUH] is part of God's [PBUH] creation and God is ultimately the creator.

Jesus being part of God's creation is also being part of God and his will. God worked through Jesus. Jesus is not God but to us, he is like God because he is above us all in mind and soul. Jesus is subject to God, the lamb is subject to the master.

The Creator creates creation, the Spirit inspires spirituality. (rexred)

The spirit is the essence of God as the spirit is in Jesus, as the spirit is in us.

The spirit is God's perfect gift of eternal life. It is potentially a NEW body.

For the body of the flesh could be killed of Jesus but the NEW body of the spirit cannot be killed by the people.

Quran 4:157-158
"And because of their saying, 'We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God' - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not (Jesus, son of Mary). But God raised him (Jesus) up unto Himself. And God is ever All-Powerful, All-Wise".

Comment:
Jesus received a NEW body that was in the image of God (spirit). God is spirit and God gives that which he is. We shall one day have this "new body" also.

Jesus was in the image of God just was we are in the image of God, (because of the spiritual reality likewise within). Jesus gave of himself as God has given of himself.

God Created Adam in his image in the book of Genesis, does that make Adam God? No. It speaks of the spirit/image that God created "upon" Adam, this spirit was what died in Adam the day he and Eve "sinned", Yet, their mortal bodies died on a later date.

Christ Jesus (the "man" God raised him up unto Himself) is the first born of the spirit and he makes this spirit (lost by Adam) available (in an unconditional manner, seed) to the average person who simply, "believes"...

Peace with God

Basically, Jesus (PBUH) is in the image of Adam (PBUH), as we will be in Heaven (may God will).

Then that begs the question, do you regard Jesus (PBUH) as the son of God or the believe in the Trinity?

Life is both physical and living, science and spiritual. DNA is a long pattern of four chemicals shuffled like cards, yet out of this comes life. Science cannot tell you what life is yet (they may never know) and they do not even acknowledge that the spirit of God exists..

The image of God is the spiritual not the physical (flesh). The spirit is the guide to the truth. In the book of Genesis, God had already "formed" man from the dust of the ground (image) and he had already made him into a living soul, it was not until AFTER Adam was alive that God CREATED his image (spirit) in him. [BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT] This image is spiritual not physical, heavenly not earthly.
God has no beauty that his form should be desired (this is spirit)...

Isaiah 53:2
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Comment:
We all have our breath life passed down from Adam by way of God. Jesus' breath life came from God directly as did Adam's, Yet Jesus came in the form of a created sperm in the womb of the virgin handmaid Mary. A child cannot be born without the sperm and the egg. A female does not produce sperm the father produces the sperm. If this was not the case God would have had to have created testicles on Mary [PBUH] (that was certainly not the case.).

Thus Jesus is the son of God or we would have to rewrite not only the Bible but biology also. Just as a chicken and an egg. The egg will not have life unless the sperm of the rooster fertilized the egg and then it will grow into a living soul. This is true 100% of the time. Thus the soul (breath life) that was in Jesus was not passed on by Adam but it was created NEW and placed in the sperm within the womb of Mary. Thus Jesus was in the physical of Adam but his life (soul) came from a different source. (This is only addressing soul and body and does not even address the spiritual matters yet. The spirit as a dove that descended from the heavens at the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist.)

Matthew 3:16
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him [Jesus]:

Comment:
This life/soul "created" in the womb of Mary was what made Jesus' blood differ from ours and not contain Adam and Eve's original sin.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he [Jesus] also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Comment:
We are partakers of flesh and blood but Jesus only took part. What part did he take? He took only the flesh part (from the egg part in his mother Mary's womb) yet the life part that was in his blood came from God. (this is biology not religion.)

The life of the flesh is in the blood and it is passed down from the male sperm to the female egg.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Comment:
Flesh and blood... The flesh/egg/body part of Jesus came from Mary and the blood/sperm/soul part God created. The blood (life) part came from God and was not passed on from Adam as our soul life is. (flesh and blood)

This makes Jesus the second Adam and not just another child of Adam or "son of man".

Then we get to the spirit part. For we share soul/life with the animals too. Animals have body AND souls (Biblically). The birth of the holy spirit within is part of the human not animal kingdom. Yet even animals have soul life (breath life). Animals cannot receive spiritual seed "within" as humans, they can only have spirit "upon" them.

So it is not the formed body or made soul that puts us in the image of God or even animals would be in his image too. It must be the created spirit that is the image of God. (God created man in his own image but he made and formed man and life in other images.) We are in God's image (spirit) but God is not created in our image.

Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Comment:
If God created the sperm in Mary's womb would you consider God Jesus' father? I do not believe in the trinity but I believe Jesus is the son of God just as we are sons of God too when we believe in Christ Jesus but I do not believe that Jesus is God the son. Jesus is ultimately subject to God, nothing that is subject to another can be God.

1Co 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Comment:
No man (body, soul and spirit) can be God. No man can be his own father. Jesus is the "image" of God, just as Adam was (spiritually) because Jesus, with perfect "life" in his blood, was able to receive the holy spirit God created for humans to utilize and take that "sinless life" into eternity by the grace of God.

But we need to look at those who do wrongly believe that Jesus is God equally as we look at those who do not perceive the "spiritual" matters of God. They are either taught wrong and they are ignorant of that fact or they have not been taught at all.

If we do not understand body, soul and spirit we cannot understand God [PBUH] and our position in this world as God's offspring.

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"Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4).

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Raul-7 wrote:

"Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4).

The Quran "compares" God to the "image" in man, so either the Quran contradicts itself or some do not properly understand the Quran. I prefer the latter of the two.

God should not be degraded by man just as a father should not be degraded by his child. A person should not be degraded by their own image. God's spirit cannot be corrupted.

Exodus 35:31
And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Raul, (in all humility) you "compared" Adam's/man's image with God... We should step back a bit in our thought and see these contradictions as caused by not understanding God's "spirituality". The image of God is spirit not flesh. This spirit is a creation just as a child is. God's image has the character and resemblance of God (this is simple logic), the spirit is not God but it is an image of God just as God is SPIRIT the image is spirit (Big SPIRIT, little spirit). God does NOT have a father too, I agree with that literally. God always is, was and will always be.

Also,
Even if God created a whole baby in Mary's womb it is still embryology. (and highly painful)

It is not only what the Quran says, but what is the "meaning" of what the Quran says. Today's clerics do not understand the spirit so they do not understand God or the Quran.

Jesus was created from the dust because he had a body as all of our bodies came from the dust also. Nutrients and minerals. It is not only the body but the soul and the spirit that makes a man. All must be considered when attempting to understand the Bible or the Quran. If Jesus was just created then why even bother to make him suffer birth? This conception of Jesus Christ was more natural than that. Nature is not cursed, nature also has been touched by the master. In his foreknowledge God created the natural world and God used the natural world to bring forth a child. Jesus did not become the image of God until he received the spirit from God after baptism with John.

The life part in this child is what is in question. The life and the spirit realm and what defines them.

I must admit that the spiritual reality of life is one seemingly obtrusive and of the most advanced areas pertaining to the wisdom of God.

What makes a man or woman? Body, soul and spirit. Jesus was completely body, soul and spirit, this defines him as totally within the realm of the flesh. He was as human as you or I. Yet his life did not come from Adam. It was NEW.

1John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

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Genesis 14:18
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Psalms 110:4
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 5:6
As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Comment:
Bread and wine, body and soul...

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Raul, are you implying that it is not in God's power to father anything?

Considering it would only take the creation of a sperm to do so. Is God not powerful enough to create a sperm? Is God less powerful than a man?

Is it right for us to second guess God's motivations and purposes?

"Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4).

Comment:
Was this verse written by Mohammed's own hand or someone else hundreds of years after the prophet Jesus?

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echi wrote:

RexRed wrote:
echi wrote:

I'm trying to follow along, Rex.
I hope my directness is not perceived as hostility.

So, let's see...
"It is the spirit that reveals this hidden light..." I still don't understand what you mean by "spirit". I think it might help me if you replace "spirit" with a different word (or words), keeping the rest of the sentence as it is.
Reading over your short story , a couple pages back, I get the impression that the "spirit" (holy spirit) is like some kind of realization that accompanies or directs one towards a fuller awareness or awakening.

I look forward to your questions... I can tell (God has told me) that you are meek to his word... Those who question the senses are those who find the spirit.

Think of the holy spirit as "power", power for abundant life. Power as in, energy within matter.

The holy spirit was erroneously translated as the holy "ghost".

The holy spirit is not a ghost but it is a new identity that God creates within a soul.

This energy allows the soul to migrate from the physical into the eternal

This spirit is a "gift" from God the giver. It cannot become corrupted and it is spiritual light that can travel through the cosmos within an instant.

It is the essence of light and perception. It is a form of light that reveals all other froms of light and intelligence. The spirit is potential energy, this energy has the potential to reveal the physical in a new light. As this potential energy becomes kinetic the power of the spirit is manifested.

The spirit is eternal and everlasting. It is an image of creation itself.

So erase the idea that the holy spirit is a "ghost". This is not only erroneous but it is misleading. The holy spirit is YOU, that is the real you.

It is Christ in you, because Christ bore the same spiritual "image" of God within that we do. God is Holy Spirit and he gives the image gift (holy spirit, small "h" small "s") as the giver of that which he is.

God is the creator and he gives creation to others. The spirit is the change that only the eye of God can perceive within.

The spirit is the senses of God within versus the limited senses of our flesh.

You and I use different words, different symbols, but I still think our understanding is very similar. (Or maybe I have yet to understand the differences.)
The holy spirit enables the mind to realize the true nature of everything, which is called "Christ" or "Buddha". It is non-personal and non-created (timeless, eternal).
I don't understand what you mean when you describe God as "Creator". To me, "creation" is illusion. That which is eternal is not subject to "creation". That which is "created" is not real.

What is created is often a real illusion. Smile

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RexRed wrote:

Raul, are you implying that it is not in God's power to father anything?

Considering it would only take the creation of a sperm to do so. Is God not powerful enough to create a sperm? Is God less powerful than a man?

Is it right for us to second guess God's motivations and purposes?

"Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4).

Comment:
Was this verse written by Mohammed's own hand or someone else hundreds of years after the prophet Jesus?

Of course it's within His power, but it is not befitting of His majesty that He fathers anyone. Why would God need a son?

No, the Prophet would never do such a thing. He was illiterate. Nor would the companions for they had a great fear of God. The Quran hasn't changed, if I compare the Quran I have today with the one found in the Istanbul Meusem they would match word-for-word.

The Words of your Lord are perfect in truthfulness and justice. No one can change His Words. He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. (Surat al-An'am: 115)

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Raul,

I believe the son of God is not a son on God's level but a son on our human level. God [PBUH] is NOT made of cells and flesh, he formed, made and created these. Jesus was a messiah "born" to inherit, through obedience, the earthly/heavenly powers that were corrupted by evil and to set these powers right.

God knew what this son of man would do. So the Quran is right God shall never beget an actual son. But to the people on the earth Jesus Christ is still a son of God (He was no other man's son even the Quran teaches this. A woman is no longer a virgin after intercourse and conception.) So yes, he is the son of God (on a human level ONLY) but on God's level no and no one ever could be...

Jesus is not and never will be God but when he took the powers from the devil he became "like" a God to us. Just as the devil acted upon Job's life as if he was a God, Jesus can now exact this same justice upon the devil's dominion, that is, if we untie his hands in our free will faith.

The devil had dominion over Job. This same dominion the messiah has now. Jesus is not a God to God, he is "like" a God to the devil and us.

Jesus has dominion over the devil because it was the devil who tried to kill him and it was the devil's own law that the devil was judged by, it was the devil's own murderous sin that became his downfall. This downfall became the windfall of Christ Jesus.

In the Book of Job we see the devil somewhat occupying a throne in heaven... This throne in heaven and dominion was given to the devil by Adam in the garden.

Nothing can inherit the kingdom of God for God shall never expire but we can "inherit" the "kingdom" of heaven.

Heaven and paradise were "created" in the first verse of Genesis. Yet the Devil usurped these places. These places were meant for humans and spirits to occupy in peace, unity and innocence. But the devil became zealous and we were like naive children who had their inheritance stolen by deceit and trickery.

This inheritance is spiritual to those of Christ not physical. Those who live only by the physical shall be judged by the law those who live for the spiritual shall be rewarded by God.

Just as the devil and the angels being purely spiritual were a sort of offspring or extension created by God in the beginning. Spiritually, this "throne" is now occupied by the son of man, God's only "earthly" son begotten of a woman.

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I see what you're saying, God is spirtual and He gave Mary, Jesus (PBUT). But I still think it's going against the essence of monotheism to associate partners with God, for example, Prophet Solomon (PBUH) has just as many powers as Jesus (PBUH) did - if not more. God gave him the power to control the wind, the Jinn (devils included) and He could understand the language of the animals. But still, he was still mortal and no more than messenger who passed away like the rest of them. I see what you're saying though, because Jesus wasn't of a regular birth. He was just like Adam, created from clay and then blown into life. But I still feel it's wrong to associate anything with God.

O People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God. (Surat Al 'Imran, 64)

What do you say? Smile

Anyways, here's the Quranic story of Jesus (PBUH): called the Glad Tidings of the Messiah:
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/gladtidings/gladtidings03.php

It may interest you.

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RexRed wrote:

echi wrote:

You and I use different words, different symbols, but I still think our understanding is very similar. (Or maybe I have yet to understand the differences.)
The holy spirit enables the mind to realize the true nature of everything, which is called "Christ" or "Buddha". It is non-personal and non-created (timeless, eternal).
I don't understand what you mean when you describe God as "Creator". To me, "creation" is illusion. That which is eternal is not subject to "creation". That which is "created" is not real.

What is created is often a real illusion.

No, not really.

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Here is a very interesting video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NDI0lojaeI&NR

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RexRed wrote:

Here is a very interesting video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NDI0lojaeI&NR

Yes, very nice animation but how does it relate to the thread?

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Raul-7 wrote:

RexRed wrote:
Here is a very interesting video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NDI0lojaeI&NR

Yes, very nice animation but how does it relate to the thread?

Well it certainly relates to embryology and the conception of Jesus Christ and the complexity of the physical world. Is this physical world simple compared to the realms of soul and spirit?

To think that heavenly angels appear to humans and are totally spiritual yet they have physical human bodies. Jesus, when he appeared to his apostles and Magdalene after enduring "physical" death had a new body and could change his appearance right in front of them. How does our physical world connect to the living and spiritual elements of our cosmos? Do the soul and spirit virally infect the physical and animate them?

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However, I have to say that Jesus was not killed (soul) nor was he crucified (physical). Thus leaving the fact that Allah (God) infact raised both his soul and body to purify him of all the hypocriptes trying to kill him.

In the ayah you posted earlier: ""They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did." (Quran 4:156)

"They killed him not" - this is the spiritual aspect. If they did not kill the prophet, then it is safe to assert that his soul was not collected by Azrael (the Angel of Death) (PBUH).

"Nor crucifiy him" - this is the physical aspect. This means exactly as it is read, they did not crucify his body either.

For example, in this verse. Jesus directly says: "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!" (Quran 19:33)

Implying he has yet to die both physically and spirtually.

Then in another verse, Allah himself speaks on behalf of Yahya (John), who had died. "So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!" (Quran 19:15)

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Raul-7 wrote:

However, I have to say that Jesus was not killed (soul) nor was he crucified (physical). Thus leaving the fact that Allah (God) infact raised both his soul and body to purify him of all the hypocriptes trying to kill him.

In the ayah you posted earlier: ""They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did." (Quran 4:156)

"They killed him not" - this is the spiritual aspect. If they did not kill the prophet, then it is safe to assert that his soul was not collected by Azrael (the Angel of Death) (PBUH).

"Nor crucifiy him" - this is the physical aspect. This means exactly as it is read, they did not crucify his body either.

For example, in this verse. Jesus directly says: "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!" (Quran 19:33)

Implying he has yet to die both physically and spiritually.

Then in another verse, Allah himself speaks on behalf of Yahya (John), who had died. "So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!" (Quran 19:15)

So the messiah will die at some point you are saying? When? How do you know this did not happen already? Who is going to kill him? Jesus is not here physically and Mohammed did not speak of meeting him did he? An immortal is not crucified... Yet he does not live in the flesh but in the spirit.

To crucify someone is to imply that they have been confined to the grave (spiritually). So the logic is that Jesus was not confined to the grave so he was not really crucified then. But did he suffer death at the hands of the world. If not then where is he now I surely want to meet him. But was he killed in his flesh? If Jesus was not crucified in the flesh then he would have gone on to spread the gospel even further. Surely clerics have not considered this...

So the only thing that can be surmised is the Quran means that his spirit was not confined by the grave and that Jesus [PBUH] was raised to a new body.

The book of Genesis says the devil shall bruise the messiah's heel. Well that is the flesh, the heal of any human is the flesh. The flesh is where we are vulnerable but the soul and spirit are the real person. Though the world could take Jesus' flesh they could not crucify his spirit.

Those who live for the flesh will die in the flesh. Those who die for the flesh will live in the spirit.

Again technically the Quran is correct, Jesus was not crucified like any other person because the grave could not hold him down... but that does not mean that the devil did not bruise the messiah's heel (flesh). If the world did not bruise Jesus' heel then he would not be the true messiah.

In the book of Genesis Jesus is said to bruise the head of the serpent. The head of the serpent is the flesh because he is confined to the kingdoms of this world. So to attack the devil in the flesh is to mortally wound him because he does not have a spiritual kingdom to fall back on any longer.

Ge 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it [the woman's seed] shall bruise thy head, and thou [the devil] shalt bruise his heel.

Comment:
The devil bruised Jesus' heel and he used the people to do it. He is still using them today to bruise the heel of Jesus Christ.

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Does anyone consider the tossing about of Bible quotes an argument? A discussion?

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Jesus Christ and Homosexuality.

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