Mr. Pachelbel- Here is the article. It took them long enough!! What a foul up with the health and comfort of the Canadian citizenry!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Canada's high court opens door to sale of health insurance
Long wait for care in national system violates rights, it says
Clifford Krauss, New York Times
(06-10) 04:00 PDT Toronto -- Canada's Supreme Court struck down a Quebec law banning private medical insurance Thursday, in a decision that represents an acute blow to the national health care system.
The high court stopped short of declaring Canada's publicly financed health care system unconstitutional, but experts across the legal spectrum said they expect the decision to lead to sweeping changes.
Canada is the only industrialized country that outlaws privately financed purchases of core medical services. The Canadian health care system provides free doctor's services that are paid for by taxes. The public has strongly supported the system, which is broadly identified with the Canadian national character.
But in recent years, patients have been forced to wait long periods for diagnostic tests and elective surgery, while the wealthy and well-connected either have sought care in the United States or have used influence to jump medical lines.
The Supreme Court found that waiting lists have become so long that they violate patients' right to "life and personal security, inviolability and freedom" under the Quebec charter of human rights and freedoms, which covers about one-quarter of Canada's population.
"The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public health care system are widespread, and that, in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care," the Supreme Court ruled. "In sum, the prohibition on obtaining private health insurance is not constitutional where the public system fails to deliver reasonable services."
"The language of the ruling will encourage more and more lawsuits, and those suits have a greater likelihood of success in light of this judgment," said Lorne Sossin, acting dean of the University of Toronto law school.
Patrick Monahan, dean of the Osgoode Hall Law School of York University in Toronto and a critic of the national health care system, was even more emphatic.
"They are going to have to change the fundamental design of the system," he said. "They will have to build in an element of timely care or otherwise allow the development of a private medical system."
The case was brought by Jacques Chaoulli, a Montreal family doctor who argued his own case through the courts, and George Zeliotis, a chemical salesman who was forced to wait a year for a hip replacement while he was prohibited from paying privately for surgery. Chaoulli and Zeliotis lost in two Quebec provincial courts before the Supreme Court decided to take their appeal.
At a news conference, Chaoulli predicted the decision will eventually apply to all Canada. "How could you imagine that Quebeckers may live," he asked, "and the English Canadian has to die?"
There was no immediate impact on the national system outside Quebec, since the justices split 3-3 on the question of whether the province's ban on private medical insurance violated the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Canada's bill of rights, as the two plaintiffs contended. However, experts predicted the decision will have widespread importance.
Margaret Somerville, professor of law and medicine at McGill University, said the ruling "is extremely important" in large part because "the provinces that want to run some form of a complementary private system would probably be able to do so now."
Alberta provincial officials have long suggested that they wanted to develop a private health care system, while private diagnostic and special surgery clinics have been cropping up in Quebec, British Columbia and Ontario in recent years.
The federal government has threatened to hold back financial aid to provinces that press ahead with private health care, but Somerville said it will be less likely to do so now.
Prime Minister Paul Martin responded to the decision by saying that his government is making progress in shortening waiting times for medical services.
"What today's decision does do, however, is accentuate just how important it is to act immediately, how urgent this situation is," he said.
But he rejected the notion that the ruling will bring about fundamental change. "We are not going to have a two-tier health care system in this country," Martin said. "Nobody wants that. What we want to do is to strengthen the public health care system."
Page A - 13
AS I AM SURE YOU NOTICED, MR. PACHELBEL THE ARTICLE STATES THAT THE DECISION REPRESENTS AN ACUTE BLOW TO THE NATIONAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.
and it's about time!!!!!
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:Paaskynen wrote:pachelbel wrote:Finn d'Abuzz wrote:Out of curiosity though, what are the centrals themes of American culture than you believe run through all of its television programs and all of its products?
Baseball, hotdogs, applepie and Chevrolet. Elvis, infantile sexual themes, the latest hollywood star (American royalty, sadly), happy endings, must haves, keep up with the Joneses, people with the attention span of a gnat, rampant consumerism, logos, credit cards (can't leave home without it, right?), marketing that is aimed at 2 year olds, propaganda thru TV, I'm sure I'll think of more......
or someone else will.....
Whoa, I think my (Dutch) mother and her ancestors can lay claim to applepie much more than Americans (must be their cultural imperialism!
) and hotdogs is just a "polictically rectified" (just like "freedom fries") word for Frankfurter sausage (which as the name indicates came from Germany). And wasn't keeping up with the Joneses invented by the class-conscious British?
Now if I were to consider American cultural influences that I observe here it would include rampant consumerism and fast food (both short term materialist goals), a focus on the superficial (the wrapping sells more than the content, special effects before depth of plot, cosmetic surgery and reality TV), an obsession with pubescent sex and with crime (nudity is sex (nipplegate!), sex is evil and (armed) criminals are heroes (gansta rap!)), a total disregard for those who do not win and, finally, a tendency to oversimplify complex issues and make them into black and white matters where there is no middle ground (i.e. the place where organisations like the UN can operate) leading to an inability to accept dissenting views ("they do/see things differently and
therefore they do/see it wrong", "You are either with us, or with the terrorrists").
I guess that if I think hard I can come up with some more. One must add the footnote, though, that such tendencies exist in many cultures, but they do not have the means of transmission that the American economy and popular culture have.
That's rather odd, not a single uplifting or sublime influence. Sort of brings your objectivity into question wouldn't you say?
So, Finn, what uplifting or sublime influence would you like to include?
I note Mr. Pachelbel that you are in tune with my rebuttal. Thank you for allowing it to STAND! It was not that difficult to find the truth in it, was it?
BernardR:
How old is this article
???
Geez, get a clue.
Paul Martin isn't our Prime Minister anymore.
Steven Harper is, and has been since January.
Clearly, you don't know a thing about Canada except what your American newspapers tell you. You didn't read the article(s) I posted either.
Enjoy your substandard health care; if you can afford it
BernardR wrote:I note Mr. Pachelbel that you are in tune with my rebuttal. Thank you for allowing it to STAND! It was not that difficult to find the truth in it, was it?
Sorry? What truth?
Healthcare in Canada is working just fine, hate to disappoint you. I just went to my doc a few days ago. No wait time, got the appt. within 2 days. No charge or co-pay for doc visit, no deductible, no lab work or x-ray charges.
That's how it works here. Now, how about your health care?
How much do you pay per month? I'd like to know. Do you even HAVE healthcare?
I notice you avoid all discussion of US healthcare in your zealousness to trash Canadian healthcare. I hear a bit of jealousy here, BernardR.
Maybe the US will join the rest of the planet one day and have health care for it's citizens that the citizens can actually AFFORD. EH?
Mr.Pachelbel. I notice you are upset. No need to be. You know Canadian Medical Procedures and I know US procedures. Why? We live in different countries.
Please keep this in mind when you decide to critique one of the political decisions made in the USA. You proabably don't know enough about it to make an intelligent comment.
I withdraw my comments about Canadian Medicine. But I am sure that you will continue to bash the USA.
You don't really know enough about it to comment...Just as I don't know enough about the Canadian Medical System.Oh, I can read about it but if I don't actually experience its workings as you have, my knowledge of it is bound to be lacking.
Similary with you and US politics, but I am sure that your ignorance of what really happens in our country won't stop you from making uninformed and ignorant remarks.
BernardR wrote:Mr.Pachelbel. I notice you are upset. No need to be. You know Canadian Medical Procedures and I know US procedures. Why? We live in different countries.
Please keep this in mind when you decide to critique one of the political decisions made in the USA. You proabably don't know enough about it to make an intelligent comment.
I withdraw my comments about Canadian Medicine. But I am sure that you will continue to bash the USA.
You don't really know enough about it to comment...Just as I don't know enough about the Canadian Medical System.Oh, I can read about it but if I don't actually experience its workings as you have, my knowledge of it is bound to be lacking.
Similary with you and US politics, but I am sure that your ignorance of what really happens in our country won't stop you from making uninformed and ignorant remarks.
You know, Bernie, you should never assume anything.
Being an ex-pat, happily, of the US, I am well aware of 'what really happens in our country'; therefore I speak from my own experience, whereas you do not. I can tell you that I've had several frustrating and expensive experiences in the States. I've been in Canada long enough to know which system works better because I've experienced both.
'Please keep this in mind when you decide to critique one of the political decisions made in the USA. You proabably don't know enough about it to make an intelligent comment.'
Is that so?
Eat your words now, Bernie.
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:Paaskynen wrote:pachelbel wrote:Finn d'Abuzz wrote:Out of curiosity though, what are the centrals themes of American culture than you believe run through all of its television programs and all of its products?
Baseball, hotdogs, applepie and Chevrolet. Elvis, infantile sexual themes, the latest hollywood star (American royalty, sadly), happy endings, must haves, keep up with the Joneses, people with the attention span of a gnat, rampant consumerism, logos, credit cards (can't leave home without it, right?), marketing that is aimed at 2 year olds, propaganda thru TV, I'm sure I'll think of more......
or someone else will.....
Whoa, I think my (Dutch) mother and her ancestors can lay claim to applepie much more than Americans (must be their cultural imperialism!
) and hotdogs is just a "polictically rectified" (just like "freedom fries") word for Frankfurter sausage (which as the name indicates came from Germany). And wasn't keeping up with the Joneses invented by the class-conscious British?
Now if I were to consider American cultural influences that I observe here it would include rampant consumerism and fast food (both short term materialist goals), a focus on the superficial (the wrapping sells more than the content, special effects before depth of plot, cosmetic surgery and reality TV), an obsession with pubescent sex and with crime (nudity is sex (nipplegate!), sex is evil and (armed) criminals are heroes (gansta rap!)), a total disregard for those who do not win and, finally, a tendency to oversimplify complex issues and make them into black and white matters where there is no middle ground (i.e. the place where organisations like the UN can operate) leading to an inability to accept dissenting views ("they do/see things differently and
therefore they do/see it wrong", "You are either with us, or with the terrorrists").
I guess that if I think hard I can come up with some more. One must add the footnote, though, that such tendencies exist in many cultures, but they do not have the means of transmission that the American economy and popular culture have.
That's rather odd, not a single uplifting or sublime influence. Sort of brings your objectivity into question wouldn't you say?
Not sure who you're addressing Finn. But what uplifting or sublime influence would you like to add here?
Oh, I am sorry. I apologize. You are an ex-pat. May I be so rude as to ask why?
We do have ex-pats from Canada here too, Mr. Pachelbel. The erudite and learned Mr. Blatham( an ex- Mounted Policeman, I believe, is firmly ensconsed in New York. Maybe he knows something you don't know.
How long did you say you've been gone? Where exactly did you live in the US?
The length of time of your absence and the locus of your past residence are vital elements that would color your responses, of course.
Forgot to mention that Canada has a surplus budget. Pretty good for people who mismanage, wouldn't you say
The US does not have a surplus budget. I will deduce that this means you guys can't handle your piggybank correctly.
The Euro is $1.25 to the US dollar. Does that mean that the Euro economy is stronger?
Mr.Pachelbel_ I did not make the comparison- THE ARTICLE WRITTEN BY THE NEW YORK TIMES MADE THE COMPARISON BETWEEN CUBA, NORTH KOREA AND CANADA.
Please be so good as to complain to them.
You also appear to be economically challenged Pachelbel. You do not appear to know that the Canadian GDP per capita is rather poor.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html
US GDP per capita---$40,100
Canadian GDP per capita---$31,500
Is that why some of the inhabitants are forced to use Igloos as dwelling places?
Yes, the Euro is stronger but the living conditions in Europe are horrible.
Take the lead country in Europe- Germany--a rather limp $28,400 GDp per capita.
Your ignorance about economics is showing, Pachelbel.
First of all, the US has almost always been in debt since the beginning of its history.
Secondly, the US has had deficits in almost every year since 1940.
Thirdly, the Strength of an economy is based on the ratio between its GDP for the year and its deficit for that year. Do you know what the GDP was in 2005 for the USA? Do you know what the deficit was for the year in 2005?
US GDp for 2005- 12,485,725,000,000-
Canadian GDP for 2005- 1,130,200,000,000
Even Italy, a country at least 30 times smaller than Canada with relation to land mass had a better GDP than that.
BernardR wrote:Yes, the Euro is stronger but the living conditions in Europe are horrible.
They are, you say it. I even don't have a tent to live in.
And in my small village of 4,000 inhabitants, the cardiologists will close his consulting rooms and re-open it in the town.
Btw, you know, Bernhard, that Luxembourg and Norway have a better GDP than the USA, do you? And that your data for Germany is outdated ($ 30,400)?
BernardR wrote:Mr. Walter Hinteler- I will be happy to look at new figures. Would you be so good as to give a link. My link covers 2004. If you have the figures for 2005, I would be happy to examine them.
It's in the CIA-factbook, wikipedia, Britannca, your library etc etc
Correct - that's doctors at univeristy hospitals had been on strike for months until a couple of weeks and doctors at municipal still are.
They really don't get as much as in many other countries.
Most doctors work in Britain: cheap flights make it possible that they return on daily basis or at weekends (about 2,500 German doctors work there).
Mr. Walter Hinteler: I take my hat off to you. You are an honest man and obviously a good scholar. Unlike some on these threads, you did not dodge when evidence was shown and you did not try to obfuscate.
I have a greatly increased respect for you. That may mean nothing to you, I understand, but I did have to tell you that!!!
BernardR wrote: That may mean nothing to you,
Less than that, to be honest. However: Easy come, easy go.
pachelbel wrote: Now, how about your health care?
THere is no better health care in the whole world than what one will find in New York, Chicago, Minnesota, Boston, etc. Are there better trained physicians than those who graduate from Harvard Medical School and then practice in the USA ?
Is there a better hospital with care for all, than the Johns Hopkins Medical Center?
Pachelbel: Why don't I see Americans rushing to Canada for medical care?
By the way, those Americans who can't afford health insurance receive "FREE CARE", because this is the LAW in the greatest country on God's earth ( USA...USA...USA )and we don't have to wait 2 days for an appointment, when our medical condition dictates otherwise.
