Regarding your post 736530 :
Quote:"no more torture chambers and rape rooms." I guess they forgot that part at one point in the course of things considering the abuse scandal.
This would seem to imply that nothing has changed in Iraq since Saddam's ouster and that American culture is no different then that of Saddam's Iraq. The first judgment is definitely premature. The second is disingenuous at best and sinister at worst.
I can claim no special powers that would allow me to accurately judge the future of Iraq, only time will tell. But in addressing the second implication it might be pointed out that Saddam's and American society differ in a couple of important features: Transparency and resultant Accountability. The difference is apparent only when both are expected of the societies in question. In the Saddam version everyone knew of the prisoner abuse, at least unofficially, but none in that culture expected any accountability to be assigned to those guilty of such crimes. The same cannot be said for American society. When such actions were exposed, investigations were ordered and proceeded in due order with resultant prosecution.
At this point, many would say that: "If it were not for the press coverage we would have never known about the abuses". Well, perhaps, but, unlike Saddam's Society, the press has been an integral part of American society since before it was turned into a sovereign nation. So, this observation would only bolster my argument proposing such societal differences.
Regarding:
Quote:"Someone said that if we told the truth as to the real reason we went to war the American public eyes would glaze over and they wouldn't support it. (something like that) Is that supposed to be a serious justification for lying or misleading the American public about a serious matter like going to war? "
I have used this visual metaphor in this very context and will take full responsibility. However your claim that it was used for a justification for war is off the mark. Returning to the post it can be seen that it was used in the context of a lament regarding the whole of the American public's rather short attention span when trying to explain complex issues and concepts in the political arena. After all, it is difficult enough to put forward comprehensive info on a subject such as the "out-sourcing" of jobs on shows like PBS's "News Hour" or even "Charlie Rose" let alone a 30 second sound bite on the local evening news. A quick look at ratings tells us that more people have their TV's tuned to the latter media outlet and this speaks volumes about attention span. The justification for the war was there. This administration was remiss in its initial reasoning and further invited criticism when it chose to participate in reason shifting as events seemed to warrant after the War began. This was not necessary. Absolutely every authority sincerely believed the WMD's were there. Couple this with a noble desire to break the log jam of despotism and terrorist radicalism in this long suffering area of the world and you have a solid argument for trying to make a better life for those in the ME. This was the true "course" to be charted and held to.
It is not the War or its prosecution I raise objection to. It is what followed. For those who hold to those last three sentences of mine in the preceding paragraph it seems an opportunity almost lost, but that's another thread entirely and only time will tell.
As to:
Quote:"The reason we don't support an international court is because we might subject to it one day? With that justification why don't we do away with our own laws and prisons, after all if we commit a crime we might be subject to it."
The American objection to the ICC has value even my noble opponent "nimh" can appreciate. In a nutshell America's objection does not stem from legitimate ICC prosecution but those litigations that might be based more upon international political agendas and less upon the pursuit of justice. Personally my political philosophy applies here and is best summed up in Alexander Hamilton's quote:
"I have thought it my duty to exhibit things as they are, not as they ought to be."
The U.S. is not concerned so much with being held accountable for its actions as it is with the motives of others on the international political scene that might want to seek advantage at American expense.
As to your mention of Israel and Britain: I've done some reading in the
Economist and have come to the conclusion that the Brits will stick with us sans the present PM because of the reasons so well stated by Mr. Blair and the fact that they also feel this is an excellent opportunity to have a positive influence in the area. However, your mention of Israel points to another mistake the Bush administration may have made regarding this conflict. Its tacit agreement with Ariel Sharon's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza I feel is unwise. This position would seem to rob the U.S. of the reputation as a valid and neutral broker of peace in this situation.
Alternately, blame and fault are not unilateral in this conflict. The Palestinians seem unable to gather enough support to present a united front or even to allow the PA any sort of authority regarding peace negotiations. The obstructionist, Yasser Arafat, will not allow it for fear he will loose power, he is right. But this agenda seems to doom the Palestinian people to small nickel and dime actions against the Israelis and their subsequent reprisals. The agreement that President Clinton had helped hammer out between Israel's Ehud Barak and Yassar Arafat was probably the best it is going to get for the Palestinians and Arafat turned it down flat.
I am well aware of the conflicting factions comprising the Palestinian political scene but this is only a reason and not an excuse for their inability to come to a consensus to enable compromise working towards peace. They must now grow up, accept Israel as a sovereign state, and give up the pipe dream of its destruction. In the spirit of Ronald Reagan the Palestinians might ask themselves: "Are we any better off as a result of Mr. Arafat's machinations these long years?" Witness the "refugee" camps, suicide bombers, the destruction of senior Hamas figures, and now being slowly being cordoned off via "The Fence". It is time for the Palestinians to wake up and smell the Gahwah Khaligiya.
Respectfully,
JM