1
   

What has the Iraq War wrought?

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2004 04:30 am
Quote:
Weapons and Terror
Did the Iraq war really boost al-Qaida?


Whether it was Iraq that boosted it or it would have been boosted in any case (or which to what degree) - but terrorism was indeed boosted last year. Forget the assertions that thanks to Iraq, we are winning the war against terror:

Quote:
The State Department acknowledged Thursday it was wrong in reporting terrorism declined worldwide last year, a finding that was used to boost one of President Bush's top foreign policy claims -- success in countering terror.

Instead, both the number of incidents and the toll in victims increased sharply, the department said. Statements by senior administration officials claiming success were based "on the facts as we had them at the time; the facts that we had were wrong,'' department spokesman Richard Boucher said.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Powell-Terror-Report.html

thanks to Blatham for posting the quote in another thread.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2004 04:36 am
Powell had the graph upside down. And I thought he was supposed to be intelligent.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2004 05:35 am
In paragraph 14 of the speech, a first secondary argument is mentioned: "We will tear down the apparatus of terror and we will help you to build a new Iraq that is prosperous and free. In a free Iraq, there will be no more wars of aggression against your neighbors, no more poison factories, no more executions of dissidents, no more torture chambers and rape rooms.

"no more torture chambers and rape rooms." I guess they forgot that part at one point in the course of things considering the abuse scandal.

But I guess the abuse scandal is just a product of the liberal mind too.

Someone said that if we told the truth as to the real reason we went to war the american public eyes would glaze over and they wouldn't support it. (something like that) Is that supposed to be a serious justification for lying or misleading the American public about a serious matter like going to war?

The reason we don't support an international court is because we might subject to it one day? With that justification why don't we do away with our own laws and prisons, after all if we commit a crime we might be subject to it.

Do we distrust the whole world other than Israel and Britian? That might be a little overboard, but sometimes hearing opinions from the other side it leads me to think that it might be coming to that. If Tony Blair gets out of office and another person who does not support what we do gets in, then it will just be Israel. We have the support of some other countries, but it seems like the public of those countries are voting their leaders out who supports the US. I know so far it is has only been Spain but from what I heard last week when the australian president (whatever they call it, I am ignorant on a lot of details) was meeting with bush and they had that press conference a question was asked about the up coming election in connection to what I was talking about.

I wonder if the citizens of the Roman empire felt their own demise as the most powerful nation on earth at the time?
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2004 07:46 am
Regarding your post 736530 :

Quote:
"no more torture chambers and rape rooms." I guess they forgot that part at one point in the course of things considering the abuse scandal.


This would seem to imply that nothing has changed in Iraq since Saddam's ouster and that American culture is no different then that of Saddam's Iraq. The first judgment is definitely premature. The second is disingenuous at best and sinister at worst.

I can claim no special powers that would allow me to accurately judge the future of Iraq, only time will tell. But in addressing the second implication it might be pointed out that Saddam's and American society differ in a couple of important features: Transparency and resultant Accountability. The difference is apparent only when both are expected of the societies in question. In the Saddam version everyone knew of the prisoner abuse, at least unofficially, but none in that culture expected any accountability to be assigned to those guilty of such crimes. The same cannot be said for American society. When such actions were exposed, investigations were ordered and proceeded in due order with resultant prosecution.

At this point, many would say that: "If it were not for the press coverage we would have never known about the abuses". Well, perhaps, but, unlike Saddam's Society, the press has been an integral part of American society since before it was turned into a sovereign nation. So, this observation would only bolster my argument proposing such societal differences.

Regarding:
Quote:
"Someone said that if we told the truth as to the real reason we went to war the American public eyes would glaze over and they wouldn't support it. (something like that) Is that supposed to be a serious justification for lying or misleading the American public about a serious matter like going to war? "

I have used this visual metaphor in this very context and will take full responsibility. However your claim that it was used for a justification for war is off the mark. Returning to the post it can be seen that it was used in the context of a lament regarding the whole of the American public's rather short attention span when trying to explain complex issues and concepts in the political arena. After all, it is difficult enough to put forward comprehensive info on a subject such as the "out-sourcing" of jobs on shows like PBS's "News Hour" or even "Charlie Rose" let alone a 30 second sound bite on the local evening news. A quick look at ratings tells us that more people have their TV's tuned to the latter media outlet and this speaks volumes about attention span. The justification for the war was there. This administration was remiss in its initial reasoning and further invited criticism when it chose to participate in reason shifting as events seemed to warrant after the War began. This was not necessary. Absolutely every authority sincerely believed the WMD's were there. Couple this with a noble desire to break the log jam of despotism and terrorist radicalism in this long suffering area of the world and you have a solid argument for trying to make a better life for those in the ME. This was the true "course" to be charted and held to.

It is not the War or its prosecution I raise objection to. It is what followed. For those who hold to those last three sentences of mine in the preceding paragraph it seems an opportunity almost lost, but that's another thread entirely and only time will tell.

As to:
Quote:
"The reason we don't support an international court is because we might subject to it one day? With that justification why don't we do away with our own laws and prisons, after all if we commit a crime we might be subject to it."


The American objection to the ICC has value even my noble opponent "nimh" can appreciate. In a nutshell America's objection does not stem from legitimate ICC prosecution but those litigations that might be based more upon international political agendas and less upon the pursuit of justice. Personally my political philosophy applies here and is best summed up in Alexander Hamilton's quote:

"I have thought it my duty to exhibit things as they are, not as they ought to be."

The U.S. is not concerned so much with being held accountable for its actions as it is with the motives of others on the international political scene that might want to seek advantage at American expense.

As to your mention of Israel and Britain: I've done some reading in the Economist and have come to the conclusion that the Brits will stick with us sans the present PM because of the reasons so well stated by Mr. Blair and the fact that they also feel this is an excellent opportunity to have a positive influence in the area. However, your mention of Israel points to another mistake the Bush administration may have made regarding this conflict. Its tacit agreement with Ariel Sharon's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza I feel is unwise. This position would seem to rob the U.S. of the reputation as a valid and neutral broker of peace in this situation.

Alternately, blame and fault are not unilateral in this conflict. The Palestinians seem unable to gather enough support to present a united front or even to allow the PA any sort of authority regarding peace negotiations. The obstructionist, Yasser Arafat, will not allow it for fear he will loose power, he is right. But this agenda seems to doom the Palestinian people to small nickel and dime actions against the Israelis and their subsequent reprisals. The agreement that President Clinton had helped hammer out between Israel's Ehud Barak and Yassar Arafat was probably the best it is going to get for the Palestinians and Arafat turned it down flat.

I am well aware of the conflicting factions comprising the Palestinian political scene but this is only a reason and not an excuse for their inability to come to a consensus to enable compromise working towards peace. They must now grow up, accept Israel as a sovereign state, and give up the pipe dream of its destruction. In the spirit of Ronald Reagan the Palestinians might ask themselves: "Are we any better off as a result of Mr. Arafat's machinations these long years?" Witness the "refugee" camps, suicide bombers, the destruction of senior Hamas figures, and now being slowly being cordoned off via "The Fence". It is time for the Palestinians to wake up and smell the Gahwah Khaligiya.

Respectfully,

JM
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2004 08:31 pm
revel wrote:
In paragraph 14 of the speech, a first secondary argument is mentioned: "We will tear down the apparatus of terror and we will help you to build a new Iraq that is prosperous and free. In a free Iraq, there will be no more wars of aggression against your neighbors, no more poison factories, no more executions of dissidents, no more torture chambers and rape rooms.

"no more torture chambers and rape rooms." I guess they forgot that part at one point in the course of things considering the abuse scandal.


JamesMorrison wrote:
[You] seem to imply that nothing has changed in Iraq since Saddam's ouster and that American culture is no different then that of Saddam's Iraq.


No (s)he doesn't.

Post doesn't say more than what it says: even now Saddam has gone, there are (were?) still "torture chambers and rape rooms" - and thats a scandal.

Those were supposed to be "torn down" to never return, like the rest of what was mentioned.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 06:34 am
Quote:
"A temporary coup"

Author Thomas Powers says the White House's corruption of intelligence has caused the greatest foreign policy catastrophe in modern U.S. history -- and sparked a civil war with the nation's intel agencies.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Mark Follman

June 14, 2004 | The U.S. is now waging three wars, says intelligence expert Thomas Powers. One is in Iraq. The second is in Afghanistan. And the third is in Washington -- an all-out war between the White House and the nation's own intelligence agencies.

Powers, the author of "Intelligence Wars: American Secret History From Hitler to Al Qaeda," charges that the Bush administration is responsible for what is perhaps the greatest disaster in the history of U.S. intelligence. From failing to anticipate 9/11 to pressuring the CIA to produce bogus justifications for war, from abusing Iraqi prisoners to misrepresenting the nature of Iraqi insurgents, the Bush White House, the Pentagon and the intelligence agencies they corrupted, coerced or ignored have made extraordinarily grave errors which could threaten our national security for years. By manipulating intelligence and punishing dissent while pursuing an extreme foreign-policy agenda, Bush leaders have set spy against U.S. spy and deeply damaged America's intelligence capabilities.

"It's a catastrophe beyond belief. Going into Afghanistan was inevitable, and in my opinion the right thing to do. But everything since then has been a horrible mistake," Powers says. "The CIA is politicized to an extreme. It's under the control of the White House. Tenet is leaving in the middle of an unresolved political crisis -- what really amounts to a constitutional crisis."

The bitterest dispute, though not the only one, is between the CIA and the Pentagon, whose own secret intelligence unit, the Office of Special Plans, aggressively promoted the war on Iraq. While departing CIA Director George Tenet played along with the Bush administration -- a fact which Powers says reveals the urgent need for a truly independent intelligence chief -- much of the agency is enraged at the Pentagon, which put intense pressure on it to produce reports tailored to the policy goals of the Bush White House. The simmering tensions between the Pentagon, with its troika of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Feith, and rank and file CIA personnel boiled over in July 2003, when the White House trashed the career of veteran CIA operative Valerie Plame by leaking her identity. The move was a crude retaliation against Plame's husband, former U.S. ambassador Joseph Wilson, who had exposed the Bush administration's specious claim that Saddam had sought "yellowcake" from Africa to build a nuclear bomb.

The struggle between the CIA and the Defense Department reached a bizarre climax a few weeks ago when Ahmed Chalabi's office was very publicly ransacked by officers working under the command of the CIA; the Iraqi exile leader was later accused of leaking vital information to Iran, among other allegations. The abrupt fall from grace of the man hand-picked by neoconservative policymakers to lead post-Saddam Iraq, says Powers, lays bare the brutal turf war between the two sides.

"It reveals an extraordinary level of bitter combat between the CIA and the Pentagon. It's astonishing that the CIA actually oversaw a team of people who broke into Chalabi's headquarters -- which was paid for by the Pentagon -- and ransacked the place. The CIA single-handedly destroyed him."

The collapse of U.S. intelligence and the arrogance and extremism at the top of the Bush administration are also at the root of the torture scandal at Abu Ghraib prison, Powers says. With U.S. troops facing a mounting insurgency from an enemy they couldn't find, Powers believes Bush officials signed off on a systematic policy of hardcore interrogation in a frantic attempt to deal with the problem. He says that while it's unlikely Defense Secretary Rumsfeld gave specific orders as to what type of abuse should be meted out to the Iraqi prisoners, there is strong reason to believe Rumsfeld "issued blanket permission for them to turn up the heat."

In an explosive conjecture, Powers also speculates that the Israelis, "who've had the most experience," cooperated with the U.S. on the techniques used to humiliate and break Arabs, including sexual degradation.

As for the dubiously timed Tenet resignation -- with its fairy-tale like cover story of "I'll be spending more time with my family" -- Powers thinks one possibility is that the CIA director may have been forced out after Pentagon officials, enraged by the Chalabi debacle, pressured Bush to get rid of him.

But what troubles Powers the most, he says, is that the Bush administration completely subverted American democracy, browbeating Congress and the national security agencies to launch a war. "They correctly read how the various institutions of our government could be used to stage a kind of temporary coup on a single issue: Whether or not to go to war with Iraq."

Interview with Powers follows (quick ad to watch first) http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/06/14/coup/

Thomas Powers is a frequent contributor to the New York Review of Books, writing on intelligence and military matters.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 07:09 am
More compelling evidence that the war on terror is being won...


Quote:
U.S. urges Americans to exit Saudi Arabia
-
By Pauline Jelinek
June 14, 2004 | WASHINGTON (AP) -- The U.S. government renewed its call on Monday for Americans to leave Saudi Arabia after the recent terrorist attacks, saying the safety of U.S. workers was more important than any effect on oil supplies or the Saudi economy.
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/06/14/saudi_arabia/index.html
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 07:17 am
Quote:
In the days since the UN Security Council passed a resolution governing the restoration of Iraqi sovereignty that has no overt mention of Kurdish concerns, something has been brewing in the streets here that was unheard of just a few weeks ago: anti-American sentiment.
While the Kurds note that they are forever indebted to the U.S. for establishing a no-fly zone in 1991, they also say that the Americans have neglected them.
"We have been betrayed by the Americans," said San Karim Mohammed, 32, a law student. "If America doesn't solve these problems now, I don't know how we are going to make any progress in the future. The Shia are going to turn Iraq into an Islamist state like Iran."
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 07:27 am
dys

Yesterday, on cspan, Galbraith and some others were debating the Kurd situation. I have to run out and can't find the link for you, but it was exceptional.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 07:41 am
The one thing that amazes me about this sudden surge in concern for the Kurds is that there was no similar concern when Saddam was systematically attempting to exterminate them completely and no credit whatsoever seems to be given to the current administration for freeing them from that threat. (For more than 10 years following the first Gulf War that probably saved them, Saddam had been contained by enforcement of a no fly zone in northern Iraq. I suppose some think that should have continued indefinitely keeping the Kurds virtual prisoners in their own country.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 08:13 am
Foxfyre wrote:
The one thing that amazes me about this sudden surge in concern for the Kurds is that there was no similar concern when Saddam was systematically attempting to exterminate them completely


WHOOOOAAA there ... <breaking my vow of silence>

fact-check:

national:
When news of Saddam gassing the Kurds had emerged in 1988, Democratic Congressman Senator Claiborne D. Pell tabled a resolution for the US to impose sanctions against Iraq, the Prevention of Genocide Act. "Iraq's conduct is a crime against humanity", Pell said, and "we cannot be silent to genocide again".

It was passed by the Senate.

It was then blocked by the White House.

international

After news of Saddam gassing the Kurds had come out, a vote was brought to the United Nations Sub-Committee on Human Rights to condemn Iraq for human rights violations.

It was rejected by 11 votes to 8.

The US was not among those who voted for it. Scandinavian countries, Australia and Canada, however, like the European Parliament and the Socialist International, did clearly condemn Iraq.

In short: "talk about yourself". Our parties and institutions did our best, back then, but "you" (as in, the US resp. the Republican US President) were among those who didnt want to know. And now you claim the mantle of indignation about how "nobody cared back then"?!

(edit: replaced "vetoed by Bush" by "blocked by the White House", because the different links I found use different choice of words ... so I'm being on the safe side. Le Monde Diplomatique says "vetoed by President Bush". Even the most cautious source you get Googling this one up, from The US Army Professional Writing Collection, says: "the sanctions bill was systematically watered down, and it eventually died under the heavy influence of both the Administration and opponents within the House of Representatives".)
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 08:39 am
Do you have a link to the actual UN resolution that was defeated? It would be interesting to see what the wording is.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 09:30 am
That's what I was wondering too. Was this in 1988? If so it would not be a Republican president. The earliest allegations of 'gassing' Kurds, if I remember correctly, would have been during Bush I's administration. Did the proposed sanctions and/or UN resolution include language that let Saddam off the hook? These are questions I would need answered before commenting.

In any case, my comments were not directed toward any president or Congress but rather to those on message boards such as A2K and was intended to address the impression that it appears the Kurds being 'left out of current Iraqi politics' is more important than the prior attempt to exterminate them.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 03:12 pm
You really ought to get out more, fox. This series at Slate by Timothy Noah has been running for (as you'll see, 464 days).
Guess I ought to ad the link... http://slate.msn.com/id/2102138/

The American complicity in the gassing of the Kurds isn't a happy story, but it's one you should get yourself educated concerning.

As to the present story of what's happening with Kurd interests, what happened in the past can't serve you as a justification for anything incompetent this administration is doing, so stop trying that silly trick.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 03:48 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
That's what I was wondering too. Was this in 1988? If so it would not be a Republican president.

Are you suggesting that Ronald Reagan (president 1981-1989) was not a Republican?
0 Replies
 
astromouse
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 04:39 pm
*NEWSFLASH*

"Fox news reports that the democrats have a working time machine , and they have been using it to make the republican party look bad, masking bad decisions as the actions of GOP representatives.... " more at eleven.

Razz
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 04:56 pm
Quote:
Tout Torture, Get Promoted
Defending cruelty can be a career booster in Bush's administration.

By Robert Scheer
What a revelation to learn that the Justice Department lawyer who wrote the infamous memo in effect defending torture is now a U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals judge. It tells you all you need to know about the sort of conservative to whom George W. Bush is turning in his attempt to pack the federal courts.

Conservatives once were identified with protecting the rights of the individual against the unbridled power of government, but this is not your grandfather's conservatism. The current brand running things in D.C. holds that the commander in chief is above all law and that the ends always justify the means. This has paved the way for the increasingly well-documented and systematic use of torture in an ad hoc gulag archipelago for those detained anywhere in the world under the overly broad rubric of the "war on terror."...
Was it as a reward for such bold legal thinking that only months later Bybee was appointed to one of the top judicial benches in the country? Perhaps he was anointed for his law journal articles bashing Roe vs. Wade and legal protection for homosexuals, or for his innovative attack on the 17th Amendment to the Constitution, which provides for the popular election of U.S. senators. But it's hard to shake the notion that his memo to Counsel to the President Alberto Gonzales established Bybee's hard-line credentials for an administration that has no use for moderation in any form.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-scheer15jun15,1,6605648.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 06:36 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
That's what I was wondering too. Was this in 1988? If so it would not be a Republican president.


Yes, that was in 1988/89, and I do think you had a Republican President at the time. :wink:

Foxfyre wrote:
Did the proposed sanctions and/or UN resolution include language that let Saddam off the hook? These are questions I would need answered before commenting.


From what I read, the proposed sanctions in the Pell resolution included a suspension of weapons trade with Iraq and a halt to the export of some manufacturing products. [EDIT: More info added in post below]

The resolution got unanimous support in the Senate, and Pell's move to table it was quickly seconded by Jesse Helms. (Yes, odd bedfellows).

The White House was against it, though. Because of something to do with not wanting to let Saddam off the hook, you suggest - perhaps the resolution included some kind of provision that would, and that might have been the issue at hand? Doubt it. Let me put it this way: after the resolution was scuttled, the Bush administration extended another +/- billion dollar loan to Saddam's regime.

You see, he was still considered a useful pawn in the game, at that time - a counterweight against the more dangerous Iran. The gassing of the Kurds was just something that had to be taken in stride in exchange - collateral damage, say. The legacy of "realpolitik" ...

Foxfyre wrote:
In any case, my comments were not directed toward any president or Congress but rather to those on message boards such as A2K


Well, that was a little silly then, wasnt it? Considering that A2K did not exist when Saddam attempted to exterminate the Kurds - you havent got a clue what we thought, said and did at the time. But let me refer, personally, to the condemnation of the attempted genocide by the Socialist International and recount how "our people"s attempts to draw attention to the topic (Amnesty International appeals and so on) were brushed aside by more conservative parties as just so much left-wing naive idealism ... hadnt we heard of national sovereignty? Realpolitik - the enemy of our enemy was our friend?

Bleeding heart liberals, we were, wanting to risk geo-strategical stability and interests to defend some oppressed national minority ...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 06:58 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Did the proposed sanctions and/or UN resolution include language that let Saddam off the hook? These are questions I would need answered before commenting.


This is what the US Army War College Quarterly article that touches on it has on what the Prevention of Genocide Act entailed:

Quote:
Although Congress did not act to condemn Iraq for the gassing of Iranian soldiers on four verified occasions in the mid-1980s, Saddam's gassing of Kurdish civilians in 1988 from American-made helicopters did foment a significant congressional reaction, primarily from the Senate.

In early September the Senate unanimously passed the Prevention of Genocide Act of 1988. In its original form, the legislation called for the following changes in US policy toward Iraq:

- An embargo on all dual-use technology exports

- The elimination of all CCC and Export-Import Bank credits

- An embargo on all US imports of Iraqi oil

- A requirement that all loans to Iraq under consideration in international financial institutions (the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, etc.) be opposed by the United States


To Reagan and Bush's credit <sarcasm>, they were not the only ones who opposed the Senate push for sanctions.

Quote:


Basically, at the time the Kurds were actually being exterminated, Reagan and Bush Sr deemed sanctions to be a contraproductive overreaction. But according to Bush Jr, war is not an overreaction, fifteen years after the fact.

Thats OK - different presidents might have different opinions, even if they are of the same party or even family. Its the conservative posters here that defend both Bush Sr's refusal to undertake any action (at the time the Kurds were actually being murdered) and the Bush Jr war and invasion fifteen years later (to 'save the Kurds') that have me a little puzzled.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 07:03 pm
I was humiliated at Bush's decision.

He was considered running from his responsibility by me and others I knew. It was a low point in our history, IMO. He was quite dovish, as was Powell, during the Kuwait -- Iraq war. Did as little as possible, and left things horribly undone.
0 Replies
 
 

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