ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Foxfyre wrote:

To McTag, how does one attach any notion of 'facism' to modern Jews or the State of Israel? The Islamic facists fit every point of the definition. I fail to see how the Israelis do.

Well, you could start by considering the definition

Fascism is a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism

supplied by Wikipedia

McTag wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

To McTag, how does one attach any notion of 'facism' to modern Jews or the State of Israel? The Islamic facists fit every point of the definition. I fail to see how the Israelis do.

Well, you could start by considering the definition

Fascism is a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism

supplied by Wikipedia

Hey, McTag why waste time pasting real definitions you know Bush is famous for changing the meanings of words and phrases and his little followers just take it right up after him.

Main Entry: fas·cism
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early>

How about we use a real definition like from Merriam Webster instead of one written by a leftwing socialist in Wikipedia.

Foxfyre wrote:

How about we use a real definition like from Merriam Webster instead of one written by a leftwing socialist in Wikipedia.

What a strange thing to say. You know him personally?

n : a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)

Fascism, especially in its early stages, is obliged to be antitheoretical and frankly opportunistic in order to appeal to many diverse groups. Nevertheless, a few key concepts are basic to it. First and most important is the glorification of the state and the total subordination of the individual to it. The state is defined as an organic whole into which individuals must be absorbed for their own and the state's benefit. This total state is absolute in its methods and unlimited by law in its control and direction of its citizens.

A second ruling concept of fascism is embodied in the theory of social Darwinism. The doctrine of survival of the fittest and the necessity of struggle for life is applied by fascists to the life of a nation-state. Peaceful, complacent nations are seen as doomed to fall before more dynamic ones, making struggle and aggressive militarism a leading characteristic of the fascist state. Imperialism is the logical outcome of this dogma.

Another element of fascism is its elitism. Salvation from rule by the mob and the destruction of the existing social order can be effected only by an authoritarian leader who embodies the highest ideals of the nation. This concept of the leader as hero or superman, borrowed in part from the romanticism of Friedrich Nietzsche, Thomas Carlyle, and Richard Wagner, is closely linked with fascism's rejection of reason and intelligence and its emphasis on vision, creativeness, and the will.

fascism (făsh′ ĭzəm), totalitarian philosophy of government that glorifies the state and nation and assigns to the state control over every aspect of national life. The name was first used by the party started by Benito Mussolini, who ruled Italy from 1922 until the Italian defeat in World War II. However, it has also been applied to similar ideologies in other countries, e.g., to National Socialism in Germany and to the regime of Francisco Franco in Spain. The term is derived from the Latin fasces.Characteristics of Fascist Philosophy

www.m-w.com
Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early>
- fas·cist /-shist also -sist/ noun or adjective, often capitalized
- fas·cis·tic /fa-'shis-tik also -'sis-/ adjective, often capitalized
- fas·cis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb, often capitalized

www.m-w.com
Main Entry: to·tal·i·tar·i·an·ism
Pronunciation: (")tO-"ta-l&-'ter-E-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
1 : centralized control by an autocratic authority
2 : the political concept that the citizen should be totally subject to an absolute state authority

www.m-w.com
Main Entry: fa·nat·i·cism
Pronunciation: f&-'na-t&-"si-z&m
Function: noun
: fanatic outlook or behavior

Main Entry: fa·nat·ic
Pronunciation: f&-'na-tik
Variant(s): or fa·nat·i·cal /-ti-k&l/
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin fanaticus inspired by a deity, frenzied, from fanum temple -- more at FEAST
: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion <they're fanatic about politics>
- fanatic noun
- fa·nat·i·cal·ly /f&-'na-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
- fa·nat·i·cal·ness /-k&l-n&s/ noun

He does not understand the nature of the enemy-the small slice of Islam who are Islamo Fascist Murderers...

how does one attach any notion of 'facism' to modern Jews or the State of Israel? The Islamic facists fit every point of the definition. I fail to see how the Israelis do.

revel wrote:

McTag wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

To McTag, how does one attach any notion of 'facism' to modern Jews or the State of Israel? The Islamic facists fit every point of the definition. I fail to see how the Israelis do.

Well, you could start by considering the definition

Fascism is a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism

supplied by Wikipedia

Hey, McTag why waste time pasting real definitions you know Bush is famous for changing the meanings of words and phrases and his little followers just take it right up after him.

How about we use a real definition like from Merriam Webster instead of one written by a leftwing socialist in Wikipedia.

Quote:

Main Entry: fas·cism
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early>

Now what were you saying about changing the meaning of words?

Then there are other problems with what Bush said. He contrasted "Islamic fascism" to "democracy," presumably a reference to the Lebanese Hizbullah.

This point is incorrect and offensive for many reasons.

It is a misuse of the word "Islamic." "Islamic" has to do with the ideals and achievements of the Muslims and the Muslim religion. Thus, we speak of Islamic art. We speak of Islamic ethics.

There can be Muslim fascists, just as there can be Christian fascists (and were, in Spain, Italy and Germany, and parts of Central and South America; the Spanish fascists and the Argentinian ones, e.g., were adopted by the United States government as close allies.)

But there cannot be "Islamic" fascists, because the Islamic religion enshrines values that are incompatible with fascism.

Fascism is not even a very good description of the ideology of most Muslim fundamentalists. Most fascism in the Middle East has been secular in character, as with Saddam Hussein's Baath Party. Fascism involves extreme nationalism and most often racism. Muslim fundamentalist movements reject the nation-state as their primary loyalty and reject race as a basis for political action or social discrimination. Fascists exalt the state above individual rights or the rule of law. Muslim fundamentalists exalt Islamic law above the utilitarian interests of the state. Fascism exalts youth and a master race above the old and the "inferior" races. Muslim fundamentalists would never speak this way. Fascism glorifies "war as an end in itself and victory as the determinant of truth and worthiness." Muslim fundamentalists view holy war as a ritual with precise conditions and laws governing its conduct. It is not considered an end in itself.

The lazy conflation of Muslim fundamentalist movements with fascism cannot account for their increasing willingness to participate in elections and serve in parliamentary government. Hizbullah, for example, ran in the 2005 elections and had 12 members elected to parliament. Altogether, the Shiite parties of Hizbullah and Amal, who have a parliamentary alliance, have 29 members in the Lebanese parliament of 128 seats. Hizbullah and Amal both joined the national unity government, receiving cabinet posts. This is not the behavior of a fascist movement tout court.

Indeed, Hizbullah has made political alliances with Christian parties, most recently with that of Michel Aoun. Opinion polls have shown that a significant proportion of Lebanese Shiites who voted for Hizbullah are more secular-minded than the party is. Hizbullah has authoritarian tendencies, but has shown itself willing to compromise and act pragmatically within the Lebanese system, and has demonstrated an ability to gain support from voters that do not share its fundamentalist ideology.

Hizbullah is a poor people's movement. It could have been moderated over time, and its adherents could have been pulled into more moderate, mainstream politics if the world had devoted itself to seeing that the Lebanese economy flourished and its government was gradually strengthened. That was the achievement of the Lebanese and regional political elite in the 1990s. If the Israelis had not aggressively occupied the Lebanese South, there would have been no Hizbullah. If the Israelis had left ten years earlier, Hizbullah would have disarmed when all the other militias did. Hizbullah could have been nurtured out of existence if Lebanon had been helped.

Now, extremism has been strengthened. Lebanon is abject, on its knees, stricken with a plague inflicted on it by Bush and Olmert. The abject, the humiliated, the impoverished do not, as Bush and Olmert fondly imagine to themselves, lie down and let the mighty walk over them. They blow up skyscrapers.

The idea that the whole Eastern Mediterranean had to be polluted, that the Christian Lebanese economy had to be destroyed for the next decade or two, that 900,000 persons had to be rendered homeless, that a whole country had to be pounded into rubble because some Lebanese Shiites voted for Hizbullah in the last election, putting 12 in parliament, is obscene. Bush's glib ignorance is destroying our world. Our children will suffer for it, and perhaps our grandchildren after them.

To clarify, Foxfyre said

Quote:

how does one attach any notion of 'facism' to modern Jews or the State of Israel? The Islamic facists fit every point of the definition. I fail to see how the Israelis do.

This is pretty much a paradigm of fox's posts and arguments here.

First, she picks up (in this case, from Bush) a concept or word or talking point (here, "Islamofascism") which has been created for a political or rhetorical purpose and which is then repeated (with little if any reflection) in the echo machine of the rightwing media system. We'll recall during the period where WOMD were failing as the justification/motive for entering Iraq and so a new marketing strategy was in order and we got "nexus of reasons". Suddenly, a2k began to witness all sort of people using "nexus" who'd never used, nor likely bumped into, the term previously. Or, more up to date, "defeatocrats".

Second, she presents the typical binary framework on a moral or political question...black and white, either/or, good guys and bad guys. Israel hasn't "any" fascist elements and Hezbollah (but she has it much broader than just Hezbollah) have all of the elements. America, we'll presume, has none either.

Third, she gets it wrong or gets something about it of importance (like what a word really means) wrong.

Fourth, when someone points out the error, she backs herself against a wall and defends rather than acknowledging that she got it wrong. She concludes that a proferred definition was composed by a "leftwing socialist" (as contrasted with a rightwing socialist?) because it uses the term "liberal" in a positive (and correct) manner which violates a key part of her worldview - liberalism can't stand in opposition to fascism, can it?

Earlier, fox insisted that one had to "pick sides" in such a question. All the above demonstrates how effectively such absoluteness in side-picking functions as an ideological cage and stupidness maker.

Of course, it wouldn't be difficult to make the case that Hezbollah or al Quaeda demonstrate MORE characteristics of fascism. But that's not her argument. She wants black and white simple. It's not difficult, further, to carefully look at those definitions we've all posted above of "fascism" and demonstrate how Israel manifests some and how the US, particularly under this administration, demonstrates some very troubling characteristics of fascism.

You see the difference foxfyre? One is a surrender to Allah and the other is a surrender to State. Muslim extemists (Islam is the religion, you call a person who follows Islam a Muslim) are not state run. Its that simple. Islamic States might be facist but then so might other states that are not run by Islam.

I agree partly with Gunga, and part of me has the suspicion that this polarisation is exactly what the fundamentalists want to achieve.

Certainly in this country, as articulated recently by Melanie Phillips, we have been too tolerant and too secure in our belief that different cultures will eventually merge. In fact the opposite has been true...second and third generation muslims have become more alienated from the mainstream than their parents.

But "tolerant" is a patronising word.

August 13, 2006 -- British cops investigating the airline bomb plot have reportedly found scores of bottles that had been filled with the components for liquid chemical bombs in outdoor garbage bins.

The bottles contained liquids including peroxide, which can trigger an explosion when mixed with other chemicals and ignited with a small spark, Britain's News of the World reported today.

The newspaper also reported authorities had uncovered 30 other radical Islamist murder plots - and that among the airline bomb-plot suspects were a mom-and-dad suicide couple who planned to take their baby with them on the mission.

Eight of the suspects are believed to have been due to take bombs on the planes, the newspaper reported.

In addition, the plotters included a woman believed to be one of the organizers of the planned atrocity - and that hours of covert video and audio tapes reveal the bombers reveling in how many innocent victims would die.