15
   

ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Feb, 2011 05:37 pm
@Advocate,
What with all of the emotionalism and hysteria, you yourself could have written this crap, Advi.

Quote:
They warned us. The geniuses at Peace Now warned us. The brilliant diplomats warned us. The think tanks warned us. Even the Arab dictators warned us. For decades now, they have been warning us that if you want "peace in the Middle East," just fix the Palestinian problem. A recent variation on this theme has been: Just get the Jews to stop building apartments in East Jerusalem and Efrat. Yes, if all those Jews in the West Bank and East Jerusalem would only "freeze" their construction, then, finally, Palestinian leaders might come to the table and peace might break out.


Well no, it isn't about "freezing" construction of apartment buildings, it's about ending Israel's discrimination against and oppression of the Palestinian peoples. Peace will break out only after Israel ceases and desists in doing this.

Quote:
And what would happen if peace would break out between Jews and Palestinians? Would all those furious Arabs now demonstrating on streets across the Middle East feel any better?

What bloody nonsense.


Indeed what bloody nonsense to tie the Arabs demonstrating in the streets across the Middle East with the Israel/Palestine conflict. They're demonstrating in the name of their own economic and political ends, Israel’s and its supporter’s paranoia notwithstanding.

Quote:
Has there ever been a greater abuse of the English language in international diplomacy than calling the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the "Middle East peace process?" As if there were only two countries in the Middle East.


Who refers to this conflict as the "Middle East peace process"? Aside from Israel, which is the other of the "two countries" that he's referring to? Forget language abuse; Suissa is a very confused individual.

Quote:
Even if you absolutely believe in the imperative of creating a Palestinian state, you can't tell me that the single-minded and global obsession with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict at the expense of the enormous ills in the rest of the Middle East hasn't been idiotic, if not criminally negligent.


Israel's criminal discrimination against and oppression of the Palestinian peoples is the crux of the enormous ills in the Middle East. It's what threatens a region wide war. It should be dealt with accordingly.

Quote:
While tens of millions of Arabs have been suffering for decades from brutal oppression, while gays have been tortured and writers jailed and women humiliated and dissidents killed, the world—yes, the world—has obsessed with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


The world--yes, the WORLD--supports brutally oppressive regimes that toe the line of its own ends such as those formerly in Iraq, and presently in Egypt and of course Israel. See response #4 above and #6 below as to the world's--yes the WORLD'S--obsession with the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Quote:
As if Palestinians—the same coddled victims on whom the world has spent billions and who have rejected one peace offer after another—were the only victims in the Middle East.


Surely, the Palestinians are not the only victims. Their plight in the hands of the state of Israel does take the spotlight especially in light of the fact that Israel's brand of discrimination and oppression, one based on ethnocentric nationalist ideology, was brought from Europe into the Middle East and imposed on the Palestinians by a people--the Zionists--who, ironically, suffered discrimination and oppression through this very ideology. These people are rightly seen as hypocritical interlopers.

Quote:
As if the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has anything to do with the 1,000-year-old bloody conflict between Sunni and Shiite Muslims, or the desire of brutal Arab dictators to stay in power, or the desire of Islamist radicals to bring back the Caliphate, or the economic despair of millions, or simply the absence of free speech or basic human rights throughout the Arab world.


The only one stating that the Israel/Palestine conflict has anything to do with the above is Suissa himself for his straw man argument.

Quote:
While self-righteous Israel bashers have scrutinized every flaw in Israel's democracy—some waxing hysterical that the Jewish democratic experiment in the world's nastiest neighborhood had turned into an embarrassment—they kept their big mouths shut about the oppression of millions of Arabs throughout the Middle East.


The oppression of millions of Arabs throughout the Middle East is not the crux of the enormous ills in the Middle East. See responses #4 and #6.

Quote:
They cried foul if Israeli Arabs—who have infinitely more rights and freedoms than any Arabs in the Middle East—had their rights compromised in any way. But if a poet were jailed in Jordan or a gay man were tortured in Egypt or a woman were stoned in Syria, all we heard was screaming silence.


These are all red herrings. Jailed poets in Jordan, a gay man tortured in Egypt and a woman stoned in Syria don't portend a region wide war. Israel's discrimination of and oppression against the Palestinian peoples does.

Quote:
Think of the ridiculous amount of media ink and diplomatic attention that has been poured onto the Israel-Palestinian conflict over the years, while much of the Arab world was suffering and smoldering, and tell me this is not criminal negligence.


Suissa considers the amount of ink used or not used in reporting the Israel/Palestine conflict and Arab suffering as something that is criminally negligent? What cynicism! What is criminal intention is Israel's discrimination and oppression of the Palestinian peoples in the name of an ethnocentric state, and its support by people like Suissa who contribute to the Zionist cause.

Quote:
Do you ever recall seeing a UN resolution or an international conference in support of Middle Eastern Arabs not named Palestinians?


The ones regarding Iraq come to mind.

Quote:
Of course, now that the Arab volcano has finally erupted, all those chronic Israel bashers have suddenly discovered a new cause: Freedom for the poor oppressed Arabs of the Middle East!


So, support for the oppressed peoples in the Middle East is a bad thing? Or is that only in regard to support of the Palestinians?

Quote:
Imagine if, instead of putting Israel under their critical and hypocritical microscope, the world's Israel bashers had taken Israel's imperfect democratic experiment and said to the Arab world: Why don't you try to emulate the Jews?


And institutionalize a kinder, gentler discrimination and oppression based on ethnocentric bigotry?

What would be better is the institutionalization of an egalitarian and pluralistic democracy for all of the peoples in Israel/Palestine that guarantees their rights and does away with the despicable ideas of exclusivity of the Zionists: "this land is for the Jews".

Quote:
Why don't you give equal rights to your women and gays, just like Israel does?


Why don't you, Israel, give equal rights to the Palestinians?

Quote:
Why don't you give your people the same freedom of speech and freedom to vote that Israel does? And offer them the economic opportunities they would get in Israel? Why don't you treat your Jewish and Christian citizens the same way Israel treats its Arab and Christian citizens?


Why don't you, Israel, truly give your Palestinian citizens equal treatment and not systematically discriminate against them as was revealed by your Or Commission in 2000? Why don't you, Israel, own your obligation through UN resolutions 194 and 237 to grant the Palestinians that you oppress their Right of Return?

Quote:
Why don't you study how Israel has struggled to balance religion with democracy—a very difficult but not insurmountable task?


Why don't you, Israel, study how to separate church and state as it is done in the United States of America?

Quote:
Why don't you teach your people that Jews are not the sons of dogs but a noble, ancient people with a 3,000-year connection to the land of Israel?


Why don't you, Israel, acknowledge that the Palestinians by and large share that heritage with Jews?

Quote:
Yes, imagine if Israel bashers had spent a fraction of their energy fighting the lies of Arab dictators and defending the rights of millions of oppressed Arabs. Imagine if President Obama had taken one percent of the time he has harped on Jewish settlements to defend the democratic rights of Egyptian Arabs—which he is suddenly doing now that the volcano has erupted.


(Imagining. . .)

There would still be the Israel/Palestine conflict at the core of the ills in the Middle East.

Quote:
Maybe it's just easier to beat up on a free and open society like Israel.


Well, it isn't very difficult to point out Israel's ethnocentric discrimination against and oppression of the Palestinian peoples, and "beat up" on it thereof.

Quote:
Well, now that the cesspool of human oppression in the Arab world has been opened for all to see, how bad is Israel's democracy looking?


Israel's "democracy" looks like the sham it has always been, the cesspool of human oppression in the Arab world having been opened for all to see notwithstanding.

Quote:
Don't you wish the Arab world had a modicum of Israel's civil society?


I would that Israel had a modicum of the USA's civil society.

Quote:
Would you still be worrying about "stability in the Middle East?"


Of course, the Israel/Palestine conflict would still be the crux of instability in the Middle East.

Quote:
You can preach to me all you want about the great Jewish tradition of self-criticism—which I believe in—but right now, when I see poor Arab souls being murdered for the simple act of protesting on the street, I've never felt more proud of being a supporter of the Jewish state.


This, of course, is merely a red herring that Suissa drags across the pertinent issue: Israel's repression of the Palestinian peoples and the instability that this has caused in the region.

Suissa is a proud supporter of Israel's discrimination and oppression.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2011 11:58 am
@InfraBlue,
Infra, you are a hopeless one-trick pony with your lies and distortions about Israel.

Again, Israel is the only real democracy in the Middle East. Its Palestinians get equal treatment, and as a whole are more prosperous than the other people in the ME. The Pals are at fault for losing some land, and this is because of their incessant attacks on Israel and unwillingness to enter into a fair settlement.

But Israel must never give up, no matter how tempting, in reaching an agreement with the Pals. After all, the settlement in Northern Ireland came after many, many, decades of fighting.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2011 12:12 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

But Israel must never give up, no matter how tempting, in reaching an agreement with the Pals. After all, the settlement in Northern Ireland came after many, many, decades of fighting.


Actually it was several centuries. Moreover peace came only when the transplanted Scottish Protestants gave up completely on their dream of permanent supremacy in a country ruled by themselves, and accepted political equality with the faster growing population of Irish Catholics. I don't think the Israelis are anywhere near to accepting that reality.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2011 05:58 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

Again, Israel is the only real democracy in the Middle East. Its Palestinians get equal treatment, and as a whole are more prosperous than the other people in the ME. The Pals are at fault for losing some land, and this is because of their incessant attacks on Israel and unwillingness to enter into a fair settlement.

Just noticed this paragraph in the ever deceitful Advocate's post above. It is a remarkably compact collection of lies and distortions of the truth.

1. Israel is not the only democracy in the Middle East. Others include Turkey, Lebanon and perhaps soon Egypt and Iraq.
2. Palestinian citizens of Israel cannot serve in the armed forcres and cannot serve in other departments of the Israeli government - they are not the equals of Jewish citizens of Israel in many other ways as well.
3. The expropiation of territory from Palestinians by Israel and Zionist Israelis has been continuous and systematic for over forty years. It wasn't the "fault" of the Palestinians that this happened - it was the greed of Zionist settlers and the faulty "security" thinking of the Israeli government that motivated the settlements.
4. Advocate's concept of a "fair" settlement would give Jews everywhere the right to settle in Israel, but would prevent the return of the Palestinians driven out of their land in 1947 and 1967. The Palestinans, and most people in the region, don't regard that as "fair". Neither do I.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 05:27 pm
Quote:
19 February 2011 Last updated at 04:44 GMT
Israeli settlements: US vetoes UNSC resolution
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51334000/jpg/_51334863_011309493-1.jpg
Palestinian teenagers sit opposite the Jewish settlement of Modiin in the West bank, 18 February Modiin is one of the West Bank Jewish settlements in dispute

The US has vetoed an Arab resolution at the UN Security Council condemning Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories as an obstacle to peace.

All 14 other members of the Security Council backed the resolution, which had been endorsed by the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO).


It was the first veto exercised by the Obama administration which had promised better relations with the Muslim world.


A Palestinian official said the talks process would now be "re-assessed".

Washington was under pressure from Israel and Congress, which has a strong pro-Israel lobby, to use its veto.

The Obama administration's decision risks angering Arab peoples at a time of mass street protests in the Middle East, the BBC's Barbara Plett reports from the UN.

It had placed enormous pressure on the Palestinians to withdraw the resolution and accept alternatives, but these were ultimately rejected.

Given the ferment in the Arab world at the moment, that is not a good position for Washington to be in.

While stating that it opposed new settlements, the Obama administration argued that taking the issue to the UN would only complicate efforts to resume stalled negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on a two-state peace deal.

"Unfortunately, this draft resolution risks hardening the positions of both sides," said the US ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice.

The resolution, sponsored by at least 130 countries, declared Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories were illegal and a "major obstacle to the achievement of a just, lasting and comprehensive peace".

Speaking from Ramallah in the West Bank, PLO secretary general Yasser Abed Rabbo said the US veto was "unfortunate" and "affected the credibility of the US administration".

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu welcomed the US veto, adding that his country remained committed to "a solution that will reconcile the Palestinians' legitimate aspirations for statehood with Israel's need for security and recognition". ......


Quote:
Analysis
Barbara Plett BBC UN correspondent

On paper this was a defeat for the Palestinians but they and representatives of other Arab nations seemed to be in a buoyant mood. They had held out some hope that America would abstain, but not much, so the veto was predictable.

The degree of support, on the other hand, was overwhelming: some 130 countries co-sponsored the resolution, and all the other members of the Security Council voted for it.

The result was strong endorsement of the Palestinian position on Israeli settlements - that they are illegal, and an obstacle to peace - which isolated Israel. It also isolated the United States.

No matter what reasons America gave for the veto (it insisted bringing the matter to the Security Council complicated chances for peace talks) or how fulsomely it criticised settlement building (as a folly and threat to peace) it appeared out of sync with the international consensus, and as Israel's only defender.

Given the ferment in the Arab world at the moment, that is not a good position for Washington to be in.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12512732
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2011 09:57 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
A SHORT HISTORY OF
US VETOES OF UN PEACE
RESOLUTIONS

The United States has vetoed 35 UN resolutions related to the middle east. (Palestine; 24, Lebanon; 8, Syria; 1, Libya; 2)
Shortly after the 1967 war, the US asserted that Israel had to comply with the Fourth Geneva Convention in the Occupied Territories, but it was only four years later, in 1971, that the US declared Israel’s actions there to be contrary to the Convention. It took another four years for the US to declare the building of settlements in the occupied territories as being illegal and an obstacle to peace. Yet, two days after declaring its position to the UN (1976), the US vetoed a resolution calling on Israel to stop changing the status of Jerusalem and put an end to settlement building on Arab land. It was only in March 1979 that the US allowed the Security Council to address the situation by abstaining on the UNSCR 446, which stated that the Fourth Geneva Convention applied to the Arab territories occupied by Israel, including Jerusalem[1].



However, at this point, the Resolution was more or less meaningless and it was certainly not going to change Israel’s plans for yet more settlements. Despite the fact that US President Jimmy Carter kept on declaring settlements to be illegal, only three out of seven Security Council Resolutions (during his four years in office) on the issue of settlements were supported by the US.



In 1979, a UN commission reported the existence of 133 Jewish settlements in the Occupied Territories, and almost 100,000 settlers. The number of settlements began rising substantially once the ultra-nationalist Menachem Begin became Israeli Prime Minister in 1977. By the end of his term (1983), there were almost 200 settlements. By the end of Yitzhak Shamir’s term, a further fifty settlements had been built; there were now around 245 000 settlers in the Occupied Territories[2].



In 1981, less than a month after he took office, President Ronald Reagan expressed his opinion that the expansion of the settlements was not a constructive move, but they were ‘not illegal’… ‘maybe unnecessarily provocative’[3]. President Reagan was a strong admirer and supporter of Israel and showed no sympathy for Palestinians, which obviously meant that there was no chance of his Middle East policy-making being even-handed. Israeli supporters filled almost every portfolio in his foreign policy team, and no regional experts in the State Department had any influence on his policies whatsoever. His term in office also coincided with AIPAC’s membership rising dramatically, and saw the launch of the Hasbara Project, which was set up by Israeli supporters and media commentators as an information campaign to try to regain a positive image of Israel. This came after it had been damaged following Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in 1982[4].



The first Bush Administration offered some hope for change when Secretary of State, James Baker, addressed the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) in 1989, stating that Israeli settlement expansion had to end. This new Administration also referred to East Jerusalem as Occupied Territory and declared that the settlement issue was one of the main obstacles for peace and one of the first concerns to Palestinians[5].



However this coincided with Jews from the Soviet Union flooding into Israel by their thousands. Shamir, then Israeli Prime Minister, declared that Israel needed to expand its settlement building to be able to house all these immigrants, even if this meant building in the Occupied Territories[6]. James Baker later declared that the U.S. would guarantee a loan for building housing for the Soviet immigrants, but on the condition that the loan was not used to build settlements in the Occupied Territories. Shamir gave Baker assurances about the use of these funds; however, in October he declared that the agreement did not cover Arab East Jerusalem[7].



The Clinton Administration expressed its position on the issue by defending the policy supporting the “natural growth” of settlements. As the Oslo accords began to take shape, the U.S. re-iterated that settlements had been a cause of tension, but both sides were now working together to resolve this. However during the Rabin-Peres Administration, the number of settlers increased by almost fifty percent[8], but these facts were often overlooked, Didi Remez, the spokesman for Peace Now, explained, ‘most Israelis were and are fundamentally unaware of the situation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. For them, 1993-2000 were years of Peace’[9]. A report published by B’tselem explains that the Oslo Accords had not dealt with the issue of settlements and thus enables Israel to continue with its policies of land expropriation. According to the report, Israel established 30 new settlements in the Occupied Territories, of which 17 during the signing of the Wye Memorandum[10].



When Netanyahu came to power in 1996, Warren Christopher, then Secretary of State, was asked what the US’s policy was on the issue of settlements. He declared, “I think we’ll have to adapt our policy to the current situation. That is our policy.”[11] In December 1996, Netanyahu spoke out firmly in support of continued settlement expansion, saying that he wanted to match the previous Government’s rate of settlement growth. The hypocrisy of his Government went even further when in 1998, during the Wye Plantation agreement, his Foreign Minister, Ariel Sharon, met with settlement leaders and urged them to ‘grab the hilltops’. This resulted in the establishment of 42 new settlement sites[12].

READ ON AT,

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/USveto.html

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2011 01:11 pm
Given its history as Israel's proxy, the United States has long been an obstacle to peace in the Middle East, and complicit in Israel's oppression of the Palestinian peoples.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2011 07:04 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Given its history as Israel's proxy, the United States has long been an obstacle to peace in the Middle East, and complicit in Israel's oppression of the Palestinian peoples.


Absolutely no doubt about that, InfraB.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Feb, 2011 08:05 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Given its history as Israel's proxy, the United States has long been an obstacle to peace in the Middle East, and complicit in Israel's oppression of the Palestinian peoples.


Do you believe that peace could have been achieved by other means? I doubt it: in fact the issue was more of a question of who suffered and whose ox was gored.

I agree that Israel (and the U.S. Israel lobby) have hid behind the U.S. shield while they fairly quietly expropriated territory from the occupied lands. Just as it was convenient for the Palestinian leaders and the governments of the supporting Arab countries to enhance their power by demanding the extermination of Israel, it was equally convenient for the leaders of Israel to exploit a continued impasse by expanding their teritory. For much of the time since the 1967 war, both sides calculated they could benefit more from a continued impasse than from real initiatives to find a way to live together.

For myself, I believe the critical moment came after the 1967 war when the victorious Israelis affirmed their intention of permanently separating the West Bank from Jordan and permanently arming the border along the heights overlooking the Jordan Valley. That doomed them all to continued Israeli control of the land, but no responsibility for either governing or doing justice to the people who lived in it. That was a grave moral and political error that made all that has happened since appear "necessary". The alternative, of course was to redefine the boundaries of Israel and make the Palestinian residents of the West Bank citizens of Israel. That would have ended the illusion of a permanent Jewish state , but, in my view, would have led to a better future for everyone.

European critics of Israel should remember the parts they played (either active or passive) in the Holocaust and the role their former colonial adventures played in creating the continuing chaos in the region. History has lasting consequences.

InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 12:31 pm
@georgeob1,
Are you referring to the US' UN veto? The US could have strengthened its anti-settlement position by voting in favor of the resolution.

As far as peace being achieved through a yea vote of this resolution, though, it'll take much more than a mere affirmation of the illegality of these settlements to achieve a peace.

The US should suspend its subsidies to Israel, and sanctions should be imposed for its oppression of the Palestinian peoples.

Israel’s hand in its negotiations with the Palestinians would have suffered, and I agree that it’s a matter of whose ox is getting gored, and the US' ox is clearly Israel.

In regard to the '67 war, there were UN resolutions outlining Israel's responsibilities to the peoples of the lands it appropriated. For that matter, there were UN resolutions outlining Israel's responsibilities to the peoples of the lands it appropriated after the Civil War and the '48 war. Israel has merely ignored them because they are inconvenient to its ends, an ethnocentric state "for the Jews".

Why should such a state, one that to exist must necessarily discriminate against and oppress peoples of another ethnicity, be allowed to exist?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 04:13 pm
@InfraBlue,
You should also consider the fact that Europe very significantly reduced its Jewish population during the WWII conflagration, and now wishes to forget both that event and its long history of sowing exploitation, misrule and discontent in the Arab world. Particularly relevant are the British/French organized dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire in 1915-1919; subsequent colonization of the whole region; and explicit promises of Palestine to both the Arab Hashemites and the European Jewish Zionists.

In these circumstances it is not surprising that a large American Jewish population, not subject to European style extermination, should organize itself to exert as much political influence to protect Israel as possible.

I agree we have carried it too far and allowed Israel and its supporters to take actions not (in my view) in keeping with even their own long-term interests. However, it is their short-term survival that is at stake, and they too are aware of the gross hypocrisy of many of their critics, particularly in Europe and in the Muslim world.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 10:21 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
Israel has few friends in Gaza, and now the blockade on the Egyptian side may be ending.
Israel's policy towards its neighbours might now begin to count against it.


Israel's policy towards its neighbors? You mean where they don't let their neighbors murder Israeli children?

I imagine that Israel can take over the border themselves if Egypt won't police it.

If there is no way to make the Gazans act like humans, maybe the Gazans will have to be forced to move someplace else.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 10:22 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Well no, it isn't about "freezing" construction of apartment buildings, it's about ending Israel's discrimination against and oppression of the Palestinian peoples. Peace will break out only after Israel ceases and desists in doing this.


As if "telling a Palestinian not to murder children" was discrimination or oppression. Laughing




InfraBlue wrote:
Israel's criminal discrimination against and oppression of the Palestinian peoples is the crux of the enormous ills in the Middle East. It's what threatens a region wide war. It should be dealt with accordingly.


As if "telling a Palestinian not to murder children" was discrimination or oppression. Laughing
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 10:22 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Advocate wrote:
But Israel must never give up, no matter how tempting, in reaching an agreement with the Pals. After all, the settlement in Northern Ireland came after many, many, decades of fighting.


Actually it was several centuries. Moreover peace came only when the transplanted Scottish Protestants gave up completely on their dream of permanent supremacy in a country ruled by themselves, and accepted political equality with the faster growing population of Irish Catholics. I don't think the Israelis are anywhere near to accepting that reality.


Well, I wouldn't call it reality. The West Bank is Israel's homeland, and the Palestinians are the illegal invaders.

And Palestinian control of Israel is never going to be reality.

If the Palestinians ever consider making peace, they will get their own country in the West Bank and Gaza. But they won't get Israel.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 10:23 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
3. The expropiation of territory from Palestinians by Israel and Zionist Israelis has been continuous and systematic for over forty years. It wasn't the "fault" of the Palestinians that this happened - it was the greed of Zionist settlers and the faulty "security" thinking of the Israeli government that motivated the settlements.


It is the fault of the Palestinians that they refused to accept a peaceful return to 1967 borders because they preferred to murder Israeli children.



georgeob1 wrote:
4. Advocate's concept of a "fair" settlement would give Jews everywhere the right to settle in Israel, but would prevent the return of the Palestinians driven out of their land in 1947 and 1967. The Palestinans, and most people in the region, don't regard that as "fair". Neither do I.


I accept it as fair, and I think most reasonable people would also accept it as fair.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 10:23 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Analysis
Barbara Plett BBC UN correspondent

On paper this was a defeat for the Palestinians but they and representatives of other Arab nations seemed to be in a buoyant mood. They had held out some hope that America would abstain, but not much, so the veto was predictable.

The degree of support, on the other hand, was overwhelming: some 130 countries co-sponsored the resolution, and all the other members of the Security Council voted for it.

The result was strong endorsement of the Palestinian position on Israeli settlements - that they are illegal, and an obstacle to peace - which isolated Israel. It also isolated the United States.

No matter what reasons America gave for the veto (it insisted bringing the matter to the Security Council complicated chances for peace talks) or how fulsomely it criticised settlement building (as a folly and threat to peace) it appeared out of sync with the international consensus, and as Israel's only defender.

Given the ferment in the Arab world at the moment, that is not a good position for Washington to be in.


One American veto outweighs every single anti-Semite at the UN.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2011 11:51 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
One American veto outweighs every single anti-Semite at the UN.


I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond ... but I think you are living in the past, oralloy.

Some quick catching up with recent developments might be in order.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 01:13 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
One American veto outweighs every single anti-Semite at the UN.


I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond ... but I think you are living in the past, oralloy.

Some quick catching up with recent developments might be in order.


There has been no change. We retain our ability to veto resolutions in the UN Security Council.

And just as we just did this one, we will always veto anti-Semitic resolutions. We will do so until the end of forever.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 01:37 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
There has been no change. We retain our ability to veto resolutions in the UN Security Council.


And you think that amounts to anything important at all?
Seriously.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 01:54 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
There has been no change. We retain our ability to veto resolutions in the UN Security Council.


And you think that amounts to anything important at all?
Seriously.


Yes. Security Council resolutions have the force of law.
 

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