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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 09:51 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Ican is a major liar. He knows very well that al-Qaida had no presence in Iraq when Bush invaded.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 05:58 am
According to media reports, e.g. by Haaretz, Hamas has declared that it would not oppose peace negotiations between Israel and Syria.

Arutz Sheva reports that a Palestine minister said that "ending Hamas rule in the Gaza Strip is a national, moral and religious duty."

"The only alternative for Israel to save itself as a Jewish state is by unilaterally withdrawing from the West Bank and evacuating most of the settlements," said Michael Oren, who might be nominated as next Israelian ambassador in Washington.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 08:03 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:


"The only alternative for Israel to save itself as a Jewish state is by unilaterally withdrawing from the West Bank and evacuating most of the settlements," said Michael Oren, who might be nominated as next Israelian ambassador in Washington.


You do know there are people that love to see Jews continually have to wander, never having a permanent place to call their own!
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 08:25 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

You do know there are people that love to see Jews continually have to wander, never having a permanent place to call their own!


You think that Israel's nominated new ambassador to the USA is such a person? Do you know more about him?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 08:45 am
@Walter Hinteler,
After giving it considerable thought, I wish Israel would unilaterally evacuate the West Bank. And then when the attacks resumed from there, and I believe they would, the anti-Israel group would have less reasonable cause to accuse Israel of anything when Israel again defended itself.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 08:49 am
@Foxfyre,

That would indeed be a start, Foxy.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 08:51 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

After giving it considerable thought, I wish Israel would unilaterally evacuate the West Bank. And then when the attacks resumed from there, and I believe they would, the anti-Israel group would have less reasonable cause to accuse Israel of anything when Israel again defended itself.


You mean, giving it back to Jordan or ...?
And what do you mean by "evacuate" here?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 10:27 am
@Foofie,
Foofie, What you don't seem to realize is the simple fact that there are many countries in this world where they are in constant danger from violence - not just "wandering" around. It's not strictly a Jew problem. You must expand your knowledge about other peoples to understand Jews are not the only people who are suffering today. It's about compassion.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 11:39 am
@Advocate,
Congress wrote:

http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf

Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.

[10th]Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Wikipedia wrote:

Ansar-al-Islam
Ansar al-Islam was formed in December 2001.
...
Ansar al-Islam comprised about 300 armed men, many of these veterans from the Afghan war, and a proportion being neither Kurd nor Arab. Ansar al-Islam is alleged to be connected to al-Qaeda, and provided an entry point for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other Afghan veterans to enter Iraq. ...

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, 09/08/2006, wrote:

Congressional Intelligence Report 09/08/2006
...
Postwar information indicates that the Intelligence Community accurately assessed that al-Qa'ida affiliate group Ansar al-Islam operated in Kurdish-controlled northeastern Iraq. ...

General Franks, describing the Iraq invasion he led in March 2003, wrote:

American Soldier, by General Tommy Franks, 7/1/2004
"10" Regan Books, An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers
page 483:
"The air picture changed once more. Now the icons were streaming toward two ridges and a steep valley in far northeastern Iraq, right on the border with Iran. These were the camps of the Ansar al-Isla terrorists, where al Qaeda leader Abu Musab Zarqawi had trained disciples in the use of chemical and biological weapons. But this strike was more than just another [Tomahawk Land Attack Missile] bashing. Soon Special Forces and [Special Mission Unit] operators, leading Kurdish Peshmerga fighters, would be storming the camps, collecting evidence, taking prisoners, and killing all those who resisted."
...


0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 12:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Foofie, What you don't seem to realize is the simple fact that there are many countries in this world where they are in constant danger from violence - not just "wandering" around. It's not strictly a Jew problem. You must expand your knowledge about other peoples to understand Jews are not the only people who are suffering today. It's about compassion.


Rather than "Jew" problem, it is often considered, in the more cosmopolitan cities, more genteel to say "Jewish" problem, since "Jew" has been used as a pejorative so often in the past.

But, as we are talking about Israel, to me a Jew, you need not be concerned about how much compassion I can muster for a world that had little interest in how successful the Final Solution was only 60 years ago. Let us wait 500 years (after the Final Solution, and assuming there will not be another), like the number of years that has passed after the Inquisition, to ask a Jew for compassion towards sworn enemies of the Jewish people.

While you ask for me to have compassion, I do not ask you to empathize with a Jewish perspective, since that might not be of any interest to you. I am not trying to be the "thought police" to you; are you trying to be the "thought police" to me?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 12:12 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

After giving it considerable thought, I wish Israel would unilaterally evacuate the West Bank. And then when the attacks resumed from there, and I believe they would, the anti-Israel group would have less reasonable cause to accuse Israel of anything when Israel again defended itself.


Why pander to Arab turf beliefs? If Muslim Arabs are Israeli citizens, why cannot Jews live in a Palestinean State on the West Bank?

In my opinion, your suggestion above may not reflect Israel's possible realpolitik. Are you just enjoying the repartee, or do you have any deep concerns for Israel as a Zionist State, and all that means to Jews world-wide?
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 12:30 pm
@Foofie,
Oren is entitled to his own opinion, which is not the same as that of Netanyahu. Israel has free speech, and there are many different opinions. Oren is just one person.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 12:52 pm
@Foofie,
I am Gentile and Christian but with a deep appreciation for the Jewish faith and people and possibly a better than average schooling in Jewish History. I am not anti-Palestinian, but I have been consistently an advocate for Israel's position as the more defensible and just one in the ongoing conflict.

Certainly the ideal would be for all Jews/Israelis and all Palestinians/Arabs to live in peace and harmony. I believe the Jews/Israelis are 100% open to such a concept. I do not believe that the Palestinian leadership is.

When I used the term 'reasonable cause', it is because the Israeli settlements on the West Bank is the biggest bone of contention with the most justifiable cause for criticism. The argument is that however it was acquired, it is not Israel's land and Israel should give it back. Personally I don't agree with that so long as the Palestinian leadership professes a purpose to destroy Israel, but I accept that in the court of the most vocal public opinion, I will be shouted down on that point. It is the most reasonable issue by which Israel's critics condemn it.

The presence of the Israeli settlements on the West Bank requires extra security to protect the settlers from those who would murder them and that creates the illusion of unfair restrictions on the Palestinians on the West Bank. Personally I see the Israelis as perfectly justified in preventing Palestinian terrorists from murdering Israeli citizens, but again I accept that in the court of the most vocal public opinion, I will be shouted down on that point too.

So from a practical point of view, I think Israel would be wise to withdraw from the West Bank entirely and let the Palestinians have it. Of course that would not require the Israelis who live there to move out, but if Israel withdraws its protection of thosec citizens, it would be prudent for them to do so. Can you imagine the peril for any Jew living in Palestinian territory without any defense at all?

What that would accomplish is to remove an important bone of contention used in that vocal court of public opinion. Then when the Palestinian leadership and the terrorists they recruit to fight for them resume attacks on Israel from the West Bank--and they will--perhaps there will be enough rational people in the world to begin to see the situation for what it is rather than relying on the Pro-Palestinian propaganda that rarely ever accuses the Palestinians but condemns Israel for everything.

Even if Israel had to extend the wall to keep out the saboteurs and bombers and resume air strikes on the West Bank, they would have removed a great deal of the ammunition their accusers use to condemn them. And I think the trade off for Israel that more people would be converted to the more rational point of view that no matter what Israel does, there are those who will destroy it if they can and Israel is justified in defending itself from those who want to destroy Israel.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 01:01 pm
Famous Quotes of History "WHAT THE **** WAS THAT!!!!" Mayor of Hiroshima, 0815 6 August 1945
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 05:30 pm
@Advocate,
Then how do you justify the fact that the Clinton admin and many members of congress also believed that they were?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 06:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I am Gentile and Christian but with a deep appreciation for the Jewish faith and people and possibly a better than average schooling in Jewish History. I am not anti-Palestinian, but I have been consistently an advocate for Israel's position as the more defensible and just one in the ongoing conflict.



And, with being an advocate comes your gratuitous advice. Oy gevalt!
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 09:16 pm
@Foofie,
Yes I am an advocate for Israel though I have no power other than whatever influence my one voice might have. What Have I said that offended you? It was not my intent. Do I have to be a Jew to think Israel is being unfairly criticized and condemned? Do you not see the point I am making about the West Bank? Is it an offensive thing to offer an opinion on how Israel might strengthen its position?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 10:27 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
Quote:
But, as we are talking about Israel, to me a Jew, you need not be concerned about how much compassion I can muster for a world that had little interest in how successful the Final Solution was only 60 years ago.


Your ignorance knows no limit. Your "we're a victim" sensibilities after over 60 years shows you'll never learn about humanity or humans.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2009 07:39 am
@mysteryman,
Clinton and others were defrauded by Bush relative to the presence of al-Qaida in Iraq. They know now that they were scammed. You might be the only person who still believes Bush.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2009 08:26 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I am Gentile and Christian but with a deep appreciation for the Jewish faith and people and possibly a better than average schooling in Jewish History.


Yes, some US universities have really extraordinary good Jewish history departments.

I really didn't know about your deep knowledge. (I was able to hear one semester Jewish history [general] at a "normal" history department, but by a professor, who later got a history chair at the University for Jewish Studies in Heidelberg.)


Back to today's politics.
I'm a bit confused (but as Advocate said, everyone of the Israelian government can have his/her own opinion): while Lieberman tells the European governments that the phrases "two-state solution" and "land for peace" are rubbish and that they shouldn't suspend a planned upgrade in relations with Israel until its new right-wing government publicly expresses support for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (he had warned the European Union it could lose its role as a broker in Middle East peace efforts), while this happens just now - Shimon Peres has been sent to the US to calm concerns. (His planned message to the Obama administration: Israel still believes in peace.)


We'll see ...


 

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