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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 06:42 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
There is no comparison. Reform Judaism is a huge movement that has been in existence for many, many, years. It has unquestioned credibility. J Street hasn't made wave one.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 06:44 pm
http://briefingroom.thehill.com/tag/j-street/
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 06:45 pm
@Foofie,
The Pals have a huge presence in Israel (1.2 million). But god forbid should a Jew wish to settle in the WB or Gaza. He or she would be murdered, if the Pals were able to do so.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 06:58 pm
@Advocate,
I believe Reform Judaism started in Germany, based on the desire to have a version of Judaism that allowed German Jews to participate more freely in German society, without the restrictions that Orthodox Judaism places on a person. I believe in the U.S., Reform Judaism is more often seen in Jewish communities that are not part of the big Jewish communities of the East coast.

In my secular Jewish opinion, Reform Judaism might be analogous, in some ways, to a Boy Scout version of Judaism, since it wants to help the world, care for the world, be concerned about the world. I am not sure the world is ready for such a brand of love?
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2009 04:33 pm
@Foofie,
Many of my Reform Judaism acquaintenances believe the way to reform the human race is to eliminate causes for envy--namely economic differences.

There's an old theory that is somewhat supported by the failures of communism. It says that the smaller the economic differences between people, the more intense becomes envy. So if that theory is correct, shrinking differences intensifies everyone's envy.

I think the best way to reduce envy is to convince individuals they are capable of developing the skills they need to emulate and surpass those who have more. That too shrinks differences with one's betters but increases differences with those who prefer to blame others for their own differences. How is this accomplished?

Provide everyone who wants it a decent education and help show them what they can accomplish with that education.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2009 06:21 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Many of my Reform Judaism acquaintenances believe the way to reform the human race is to eliminate causes for envy--namely economic differences.

There's an old theory that is somewhat supported by the failures of communism. It says that the smaller the economic differences between people, the more intense becomes envy. So if that theory is correct, shrinking differences intensifies everyone's envy.

I think the best way to reduce envy is to convince individuals they are capable of developing the skills they need to emulate and surpass those who have more. That too shrinks differences with one's betters but increases differences with those who prefer to blame others for their own differences. How is this accomplished?

Provide everyone who wants it a decent education and help show them what they can accomplish with that education.


Envy is only one variable in any formula for society's problems, I believe.

Getting back to Reform Judaism, I do not care for that brand of Judaism, nor do I care for any other brand of Judaism, other than the secular brand that I am. In my mind, I relate to secular Jews on the right side of the bellcurve that
understand that the liberal Jewish vision is foolish, and Jews should give up old religious mythology, and stop being alienated from those people that do not share their liberal views. And, oh yes, show some gratitude for living in such a good country.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2009 11:25 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
... In my mind, I relate to ... Jews on the right side of the bellcurve that understand that the liberal Jewish vision is foolish, and Jews should ... stop being alienated from those people that do not share their liberal views. And, oh yes, show some gratitude for living in such a good country.

Amen! (- |o)
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2009 11:29 am
@ican711nm,
My non-secular beliefs:
All humans are endowed by God with the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Humans forfeit those rights that they deny others. Collectivists seek government to equalize wealth. Individualists seek government that does not interfere with them earning their own wealth.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2009 11:50 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:
Individualists seek government that does not interfere with them earning their own wealth.


Go anarchy!
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2009 11:53 am
@Advocate,
Saying that Reformed Judaism has no credibility is like saying that Methodism has no credibility.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2009 12:08 pm
@old europe,
I don't mind people who really "earn" what they get in income and benefits. Did Madoff earn his wealth?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2009 03:23 pm
If you click on the link, the video of the walk out is rather dramatic. I hope that the world matures to the point that virtually everybody would walk out in this sort of scenario:

Quote:
From Times Online
April 20, 2009
Walkout at UN conference after Iran president calls Israel 'racist'
Philippe Naughton

British delegates joined a dramatic diplomatic walkout today when President Ahmadinejad of Iran told a major UN conference against racism that the state of Israel had been founded "on the pretext of Jewish suffering" during the Second World War.

Around 20 delegates, including envoys from the UK, France, and Finland stood up and left the room at what was considered an anti-Semitic remark by the Iranian leader, who has repeatedly called for Israel to be wiped off the map.

Nine Western countries including Israel and the United States had already decided to boycott the conference entirely because its draft declaration endorsed the conclusions of an anti-racism conference in South Africa eight years ago in which Islamic nations pushed through a text equating Zionism with racism.

Even before the walkout, Mr Ahmadinejad's speech had been interrupted by three protesters dressed as clowns who where quickly bundled from the vast conference room at the Palais des Nations by guards.

Later, other protesters shouted down from the balcony as the Iranian president carried on his address.

Earlier today, Israel recalled its ambassador to Switzerland in protest at a brief meeting yesterday between Mr Ahmadinejad and his Swiss counterpart, Hans-Rudolf Merz.

The conference opened as Israel marks Holocaust Remembrance Day - which falls this year on the 120th anniversary of Adolf Hitler's birth. This morning the Israeli Prime Minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, told his Cabinet that while Israel commemorates the six million Jews slaughtered by the Nazis, "in Switzerland, the guest of honour is a racist and a Holocaust-denier who doesn’t conceal his intention to wipe Israel off the face of this earth".

An Israeli Government official said that Ilan Elgar, the ambassador in Berne, had been "recalled for consultations" after the start of the Durban II conference and the meeting between Mr Ahmadinejad and Mr Merz, who holds Switzerland's rotating presidency.

"This is not a break in relations, but an expression of Israel’s discontent for the lax Swiss attitude towards Iran," the official said.

The Obama administration announced at the weekend that it would boycott the meeting because its draft declaration makes reference to the text agreed in 2001 at the UN's first anti-racism conference in Durban, South Africa. That document was agreed after the United States and Israel walked out over attempts to liken Zionism - the movement to establish a Jewish state in the Holy Land - to racism.

Australia, Canada, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Poland joined the boycott.

MORE HERE:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6132972.ece
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2009 07:18 pm
@old europe,
anarchy = government controls nothing.
capitalism/constitutionalism = capitalists control government
fascism/nazism = government controls capitalists
socialism/communism = government control everything.

I favor capitalism/constitutionalism!
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2009 09:16 am
@ican711nm,
Keynes said that government intervention makes markets work better. This has certainly been proved true over the years. Bush removes regulations and markets self-destruct.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2009 09:25 am
Why don't you guys move this discussion to the Conservatism thread or the economics thread? Of course you would be confronted there with much evidence of the consistent failure of Keneysian economics but at least we could keep this thread focused on the Middle East issues for which it was intended.

Does nobody care whether Israel takes out Iran's nukes? I posted that discussion. Crickets.

Does nobody find it interesting that so many delegates walked out of a meeting in which Israel was denounced as a racist country? I posted that too. Crickets.

Uncomfortable subjects? Obviously.

FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2009 09:28 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Does nobody care whether Israel takes out Iran's nukes? I posted that discussion. Crickets.

What's to say? Certainly we have no intention of doing it for them, so if they want it done and are happy to enjoy the consequences of such an action, so be it.

Quote:
Does nobody find it interesting that so many delegates walked out of a meeting in which Israel was denounced as a racist country? I posted that too. Crickets.

No, not interesting. Nor uncomfortable. It's just kind of a "so what". We boycotted the conference calling it racist, as did many others.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2009 09:35 am
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck, The mind-set of pro-Israelis seem to forget they live in the middle of Arab countries. If they nuke Iran, they only anger the countries that surrounds Iran.

Their idea about security goes against all common sense, because they think military power will give them peace and security, but accomplishes the opposite.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2009 09:41 am
@FreeDuck,
What do you make of the administration's implied ultimatum that Israel must vacate the West Bank and THEN we WILL help them defuse the situation with Iran? Included in this short piece posted here:
http://able2know.org/topic/79142-397#post-3628525

Or perhaps Emmanuel was only saying that Israel must vacate the West Bank before we will talk about it?
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2009 09:51 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

What do you make of the administration's implied ultimatum that Israel must vacate the West Bank and THEN we WILL help them defuse the situation with Iran? Included in this short piece posted here:
http://able2know.org/topic/79142-397#post-3628525

Or perhaps Emmanuel was only saying that Israel must vacate the West Bank before we will talk about it?

I didn't see a quote of Emmanuel in that article. Do you have a link to his actual words? I don't like to have these things predigested for me.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2009 09:58 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Are there not Arab Israelis living in Israel? Then why would Jewish Israelis have to leave the West Bank, if that became part of a Palestinean state?


Well, personally, I don't think they should have to leave the West Bank but that they would become citizens of a Palestinian state. I seriously doubt, however, that they would accept that given the beliefs of the settlers. They want to live on that land, to remain Israeli, to continue to get protection and public assistance from the Israeli government, and for their presence there to effectively extend the borders of Israel, as it thus far has.
0 Replies
 
 

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