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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 08:13 am
The fact of the matter is that the Jewish settlers purchased land and settled on waste land. It is a bitter pill for the Arabs seeing the desert bloom, and modern, clean cities spring up. That is the crux of the matter. Now the Pals want to destroy the oasis that is Israel.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 09:12 am
@Advocate,
Advocate, You are oblivious to all the stolen Palestinian lands by the Jews of Israel. If you do a simple Google search, you will find many articles on this subject. Here's a sample of one: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/settlements.html
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 09:33 am
@cicerone imposter,
Yes, the Jews stole a lot of land from the PAs (i.e., Palestinian Arabs). That was part of the price the Jews made the PAs pay for murdering and trying to evict the Jews from Palestine. You apparently think that price too high. I think that price too low.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 09:57 am
@ican711nm,
bull crap!
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 10:16 am
@cicerone imposter,
Keep in mind that 1.4 M Pals live in Israel proper. As for the WB, a big-deal 10 % of the population is Jewish. Israel took this land as a war prize. As for the Geneva Accords, the Pals don't abide by them, so why should the Israelis? Why can't Jews live in the WB when Pals can live in Israel?

The website to which you linked is one-sided pro Pals.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 10:20 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Interesting observations, and they likely have some merit. Your point about the non analogous placement of the "psychic wounds" is certainly valid, though I wonder just how great and lasting are its effects. Despite this, I believe the Palestinian population of the West Bank and Gaza has accumulated some psychic wounds of its own since 1967.

Certainly the generation of Israeli settlers who arrived from Europe in a flood immediately after WWII were in the grip of some unique motivations following what they had endured. It is very hard to fault them. However, my impression is that the next generation and the one after emerged with different viewpoints.

I believe the principal difference between the situation in Northern Ireland and that in the Middle East is the passage of time since the "plantation" began - the acute hostilities that started it all faded with time and finally only the contemporary intolerance and inequity remained. That, however, is a reminder that the hostilities in the Middle east could, unresolved, last a very long time indeed.


I believe some in the world-wide left also thinks of Israel as the possible beginnings of another colonial effort by the west (Europeans/Americans). However, with time, helped by Israel's universal draft, Israelis will become a very Middle Eastern people. Perhaps, a little more exotic looking than Arabs, but not the plain vanilla Europeans, so to speak, that came there since the late 1800's.

That might just resolve a degree of enmity, since I believe there is a racial element in the Arab's total anathema towards Israel.

At that point, American Jews might even have less concern about Israel, since American Jews by and large identify more with Europeans when it comes to racial identity?

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 11:48 am
@Advocate,
Advocate, As I've said, there are "many" articles about stolen Palestinian lands in Israel. If you think that is a biased article, look for (many) others you think are not biased. That's not that difficult a task - even for you!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 01:07 pm
In a different facet of this very circular discussion of Hamas and Israel at this point--yes, I'm as guilty as anybody else there--let's look a little further out from the center.

The next looming threat for escalation of the conflict is between Iran and Israel. Israel is no more tolerant of threats and implied aggression from Iran than it is from Hamas or Hezbollah.

It is generally acknowledged that those rockets Hezbollah used and now Hamas uses came from Iran via mostly Syria. The rockets are an intolerable threat and destroyer of quality of life however relatively inefficient they are in inflicting the intended lethal damage on Israelis.

A nuclear weapon in the hands of Iran poses a far more ominous and less inefficient threat to Israel. It is a threat that Israel is now on the record as intolerable and will not stand. Israel has put us on notice. If President Obama's talks with Iran are not successful in removing the threat, Israel will take it out.

The problem is Iran's tendency to be concilatory from time to time but also its abysmal record for keeping its word about anything.

Excerpt:
Quote:
Iran's responsiveness to diplomacy is a mirage. After two years of talks following exposure of its Natanz facility, Tehran finally acquiesced to a temporary enrichment suspension, a move which Secretary of State Colin Powell called "a little bit of progress," and the EU hailed.

But, just last Sunday, Hassan Rowhani, Iran's chief nuclear negotiator at the time, acknowledged his government's insincerity. The Iranian leadership agreed to suspension, he explained in an interview with the government-run news Web site, Aftab News, "to counter global consensus against Iran," adding, "We did not accept suspension in construction of centrifuges and continued the effort. . . . We needed a greater number." What diplomats considered progress, Iranian engineers understood to be an opportunity to expand their program.

In his March 24 press conference, Mr. Obama said, "I'm a big believer in persistence." Making the same mistake repeatedly, however, is neither wise nor realism; it is arrogant, naïve and dangerous.

When Mr. Obama declared on April 5 that "All countries can access peaceful nuclear energy," the state-run daily newspaper Resalat responded with a front page headline, "The United States capitulates to the nuclear goals of Iran." With Washington embracing dialogue without accountability and Tehran embracing diplomacy without sincerity, it appears the Iranian government is right.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123958201328712205.html


Israel has a much better track record of keeping its word. When Iraq was actively building a nuclear facility Israel gave the rest of the world opportunity to take care of it. When nobody did, Israel did. There is no reason to expect that Israel wouldn't also take out Iran's nuclear capability too.

And what would that mean? And I'm wondering if the West isn't secretly hoping that Israel will and thus relieve them of the responsibility of doing so?

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/cb0410awj20090413015246.jpg
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 01:26 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yes, the Jews stole a lot of land from the PAs (i.e., Palestinian Arabs).

That was part of the price the Jews made the PAs pay for murdering and trying to evict the Jews from Palestine.

You apparently think that price too high.

I think that price too low.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 02:32 pm
@Foofie,
There is no doubt that the Israelis have created a very effective society with a uniquely vibrant, creative economy: they have a great deal to offer their neighbors and the region - if they can begin to deal with each other as equals. The Palestinians,and Lebanese as well, have a tradition as merchants and entrepreneurs - many of the bankers & businessmen in the growing economies of the Emirates in the Persian Gulf are Palestinians. I believe this suggests the enormity of the wasted potential attendant to this prolongued conflict.

Struggles such as this one tend to magnify the differences between peoples and suppress recognition of their similarities, common interests and potential. Worse, they tend to bring the most retrograde zealots on both sides to the fore, suppressing more reasonable voices and the potential influnce of mutually beneficial opportunities that are wasted.

The Moslem world has had a couple of rough centuries in its dealings with the west, and a moment's consideration of their perspectives is worth the effort.

France began its conquest of North Africa and the Magreb in the early 1830s - perhaps an attempt to make something of Napoleon's earlier adventure inn Egypt. They ended up with everything from Tunis to Morocco. The British bilked the Egyptian Government out of ownership of the Suez canal in a fradulent stock scam in the mid 19th century and then used it as a pretext to create a protectorate there and later in Sudan. The British and French together actively conspired to force the Ottoman Empire into the World War in 1914 and wasted no time in launching their attack on Gallipoli (where they were defeated by none other than Mustafa Kemal), and incite (and finance) an uprising by the Arabs of Palestine, Mesopotamia and noirthern Arabia against the Ottomans, promising them self determnination and self-rule under their own leaders after the war. Meanwhile the British were setting up their own protectorates in Kuwait, Bahrain and Persia at the sites of the initial petroleum discoveries; and working out a deal with the French (the Sikes Piquot treaty) for the post war division of the Ottoman Spoils (the French were to get Syria, Lebanon and Mosul (northern Iraq) and the British all the rest.

After the war the British forced the abolition of the Moslem caliphate in Turkey to facilitate their own rule of their expanding empire. Meanwhile the Arab leaders discovered, during the Paris negotiations leading up to the Versailles treaty, that the British promises to them had all been forgotten and even that Palestine had been separately promised by the British to European Zionists - just months after the same promises had been made to them and by the same leader (Lord Balfour).

So the answer to your speculation is - yes the European powers did a great deal to fuel the power keg in the Mideast even before the first Jewish settlers arrived. It might have been possible to work out a peaceful transition in normal conditions, but after the ravages of WWII, the Holocaust and the massive displacement of surviving European Jews (often not welcome back in their former homelands), it wasn't realistically possible. The Arab leaders saw the return of the French Army to Lebanon, Syria and the Magreb (after sitting out WWII); the reinstallation of their former British masters in Palestine, Iraq and Egypt; and a wave of desperate European Jews descending on Palestine. Not surprisingly they became a bit Xenophobic.

As you know, I mostly (and very seriously) fault Israel for its unwise, unjust , and counter productive policies after the 1967 war.

For the Europeans who now so lavishly criticize both Israel and America for our often inept and occasionally selfish and unwise behavior, I have only extreme contempt. Europeans appear to sincerely believe they were reborn with the European Union and washed clean of any responsibility for their many past sins - apparently convinced that, after throughly ******* up the entire 20th century for the whole world they have been appointed the judges of us all.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 02:45 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob, Well stated; Europeans have become the perpetrators to the saints who condemn the US by forgetting their own history.

Pipsqueak comes to mind.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 07:37 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Europeans appear to sincerely believe they were reborn with the European Union and washed clean of any responsibility for their many past sins - apparently convinced that, after throughly ******* up the entire 20th century for the whole world they have been appointed the judges of us all.


In my opinion they are judgemental, since many may believe they are always on the cutting edge of whatever is the currently correct political, social, economic style.

I do not think it can be helped to think that, since in all of Europe there is the "history" to prove they are the cradle of the modern era. I do not think many give America credit for what we do, that they cannot do:
- We had no Thirty Year's War or "troubles," a la Northern Ireland.
- A Black family in the White House, democratically elected.
- An inclusive society where Muslim youth have "friends" in school from all backgrounds. Women wear their head scarves with no one paying any attention.
- We do not use pejorative names as part of the common vernacular (i.e., "Pakis" in Britain).
- Better dental care.
- No riots at sporting events (i.e., international soccer).
The list could grow with more thought, I would think.


0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Apr, 2009 10:16 am
Quote:

Rahm Emanuel: Obama Laying Down Law To Netanyahu
By M.J. Rosenberg - April 16, 2009, 11:12AM

Shimon Shiffer, the Yedioth Achronoth correspondent and one of Israel's top journalists, is reporting today that Rahm Emanuel told a top Jewish organizational figure that President Obama intends to see a Palestinian state created during his first term.

"In the next four years there is going to be a permanent status arrangement between Israel and the Palestinians on the basis of two states for two peoples, and it doesn't matter to us at all who is prime minister," Shiffer quotes Emanuel as saying.

More details here including the President's decision to be "out of town" when Netanyahu comes to Washington for the AIPAC conference.

I'll try to find a link in English. So far, the story is only in Hebrew.


http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/04/16/rahm_emanuel_obama_laying_down_law_to_netanyahu/

Cycloptichorn
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Apr, 2009 10:23 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Emanuel should be saying this stuff to the Pals. They have not yet produced a map that shows an Israel on it. Moreover, the Pals know that anyone who reaches an agreement with an Israel will be murdered.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Apr, 2009 11:33 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

Emanuel should be saying this stuff to the Pals. They have not yet produced a map that shows an Israel on it. Moreover, the Pals know that anyone who reaches an agreement with an Israel will be murdered.


Don't be such an ass, Advocate. If you could learn to let your Prideful ways go, maybe we can achieve peace.

Cycloptichorn
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Apr, 2009 11:52 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Don't be such a Pal bitch. (Maybe Abbas will let you go down on him.) When he walked away from Camp David, Arafat said he would be murdered were he to sign. The Israelis are fully justified to think that there will never be a valid agreement with the Pals.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Apr, 2009 11:54 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

Don't be such a Pal bitch. (Maybe Abbas will let you go down on him.) When he walked away from Camp David, Arafat said he would be murdered were he to sign. The Israelis are fully justified to think that there will never be a valid agreement with the Pals.


Kiss your mother with that mouth? I'm not a 'Pal bitch.' I don't even know what you mean by that. I just see a country that refuses to bend in any way, vs. a people who have had the **** kicked out of them for 50 straight years now.

Arafat would have been murdered if he signed that agreement, and with good cause; it basically gave Israel everything they wanted and the Palestinians nothing that they wanted.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Apr, 2009 03:43 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

Emanuel should be saying this stuff to the Pals. They have not yet produced a map that shows an Israel on it.
So what . You deny there was a place called Palestine, and that it had a government.

Advocate wrote:

Moreover, the Pals know that anyone who reaches an agreement with an Israel will be murdered.
Something like Yitzhak Rabin ???
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Apr, 2009 05:37 pm
@georgeob1,
Also from Wiki:

Quote:
Palestine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
This article is about the geographical area. For the Palestinian territories, see Palestinian territories.
For other uses, see Palestine (disambiguation).
Semi-protected
A 2003 satellite image of the region, with national borders shown in light gray.


In its broader meaning as a geographical term, Palestine can refer to an area that includes contemporary Israel and the Palestinian territories, parts of Jordan, and parts of Lebanon and Syria.[1][2] In its narrow meaning, it refers to the area within the boundaries of the former British Mandate of Palestine (1920-1948) west of the Jordan River.

Before 1948 the term Palestine was in general use, including by Zionists. For example in Der Judenstaat, a foundational Zionist text of 1896, Herzl writes "Palestine is our ever-memorable historic home. The very name of Palestine would attract our people with marvellous potency."[3]; the Balfour Declaration refers to a Jewish homeland "in Palestine" as does the League of Nations Mandate. This usage continued until the foundation of the modern state of Israel. For example in 1941-7 the most significant political lobby group supporting Zionism in the U.S.A. was the America Palestine Committee and UNGA 181 of November 1947, which provided the legal basis for the State of Israel designates it "The Jewish State in Palestine" and contains no use of the word "Israel".

Since 1948 the choice of term Israel versus Palestine is often politically loaded and, depending on the context, can arouse fierce controversy.[4]. Specifically, the use of "Israel" or "Eretz Yisrael" to refer to pre-1948 Palestine is strongly identified with the Israeli side and the use of "Palestine" to refer to modern Israel is wholly identified with the Palestinian side in what became the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

Palestine can also refer to the proposed State of Palestine, declared by the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1988 and recognized by over 100 countries.[5]
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Apr, 2009 06:46 pm
@georgeob1,
George said:

Emanuel should be saying this stuff to the Pals. They have not yet produced a map that shows an Israel on it. So what . You deny there was a place called Palestine, and that it had a government. STOP LYING. I NEVER SAID THESE THINGS. I DID SAY THAT THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A "PALESTINE" COUNTRY.

Advocate wrote:

Moreover, the Pals know that anyone who reaches an agreement with an Israel will be murdered.
Something like Yitzhak Rabin ??? NO ISRAELI LEADER IS AFRAID OF REACHING AN AGREEMENT WITH THE PALS.
 

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