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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 03:24 pm
http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/cb1231j20081231085323.jpg
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 03:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
I like it. But how the Mulims would scream!
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 03:54 pm
@Advocate,

What, you want to substitute "Targeted explosives aimed at civilians" with "Random rockets aimed at civilians"?

Some joke, that, btw Foxy. Fun-ny.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 05:45 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

I like it. But how the Mulims would scream!


Well the cartoon is funny because that seems to be exactly what the UN is demanding. And it is humor shown with absurdity as the Israelis will do as they have always done and target the enemy, it's weaponry, ammunition, and supply lines, and not innocent civilians.

How stupid is it to think that you have to measure your response to ensure that you damage no more stuff or kill or injure no more people than you sustained when the enemy attacked you? Has anybody suggested that to Hamas?
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 02:46 am
@Foxfyre,

Daniel Barenboim in his excellent article (link above) touches on the question of intelligence and stupidity.
Certainly Hamas and a lot of civilian bystanders can be smashed by Israeli military might.
But in this process, the photographic record of which can be seen in every muslim country and around the world (but not in the USA), Israel loses more than it gains.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 07:18 am
Krauthammer's take:

http://townhall.com/columnists/CharlesKrauthammer/2009/01/02/the_necessity_of_israel

Quote:

Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons. -- Associated Press, Dec. 27

WASHINGTON -- Some geopolitical conflicts are morally complicated. The Israel-Gaza war is not. It possesses a moral clarity not only rare but excruciating.

Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life that, risking the element of surprise, it contacts enemy noncombatants in advance to warn them of approaching danger. Hamas, which started this conflict with unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks on unarmed Israelis -- 6,464 launched from Gaza in the last three years -- deliberately places its weapons in and near the homes of its own people.

This has two purposes. First, counting on the moral scrupulousness of Israel, Hamas figures civilian proximity might help protect at least part of its arsenal. Second, knowing that Israelis have new precision weapons that may allow them to attack nonetheless, Hamas hopes that inevitable collateral damage -- or, if it is really fortunate, an errant Israeli bomb -- will kill large numbers of its own people for which, of course, the world will blame Israel.

For Hamas the only thing more prized than dead Jews are dead Palestinians. The religion of Jew-murder and self-martyrdom is ubiquitous. And deeply perverse, such as the Hamas TV children's program in which an adorable live-action Palestinian Mickey Mouse is beaten to death by an Israeli (then replaced by his more militant cousin, Nahoul the Bee, who vows to continue on Mickey's path to martyrdom).

At war today in Gaza, one combatant is committed to causing the most civilian pain and suffering on both sides. The other combatant is committed to saving as many lives as possible -- also on both sides. It's a recurring theme. Israel gave similar warnings to Southern Lebanese villagers before attacking Hezbollah in the Lebanon war of 2006. The Israelis did this knowing it would lose for them the element of surprise and cost the lives of their own soldiers.

That is the asymmetry of means between Hamas and Israel. But there is equal clarity regarding the asymmetry of ends. Israel has but a single objective in Gaza -- peace: the calm, open, normal relations it offered Gaza when it withdrew in 2005. Doing something never done by the Turkish, British, Egyptian and Jordanian rulers of Palestine, the Israelis gave the Palestinians their first sovereign territory ever in Gaza.

What ensued? This is not ancient history. Did the Palestinians begin building the state that is supposedly their great national aim? No. No roads, no industry, no courts, no civil society at all. The flourishing greenhouses that Israel left behind for the Palestinians were destroyed and abandoned. Instead, Gaza's Iranian-sponsored rulers have devoted all their resources to turning it into a terror base -- importing weapons, training terrorists, building tunnels with which to kidnap Israelis on the other side. And of course firing rockets unceasingly.

The grievance? It cannot be occupation, military control or settlers. They were all removed in September 2005. There's only one grievance and Hamas is open about it. Israel's very existence.

Nor does Hamas conceal its strategy. Provoke conflict. Wait for the inevitable civilian casualties. Bring down the world's opprobrium on Israel. Force it into an untenable cease-fire -- exactly as happened in Lebanon. Then, as in Lebanon, rearm, rebuild and mobilize for the next round. Perpetual war. Since its raison d'etre is the eradication of Israel, there are only two possible outcomes: the defeat of Hamas or the extinction of Israel.

Israel's only response is to try to do what it failed to do after the Gaza withdrawal. The unpardonable strategic error of its architect, Ariel Sharon, was not the withdrawal itself but the failure to immediately establish a deterrence regime under which no violence would be tolerated after the removal of any and all Israeli presence -- the ostensible justification for previous Palestinian attacks. Instead, Israel allowed unceasing rocket fire, implicitly acquiescing to a state of active war and indiscriminate terror.

Hamas' rejection of an extension of its often-violated six-month cease-fire (during which the rockets never stopped, just were less frequent) gave Israel a rare opportunity to establish the norm it should have insisted upon three years ago: no rockets, no mortar fire, no kidnapping, no acts of war. As the U.S. government has officially stated: a sustainable and enduring cease-fire.

If this fighting ends with anything less than that, Israel will have lost again. It can ill afford to lose any more wars.





0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 07:22 am
Israel plainly views this business as something like trying to save a patient (the normal people of gaza which it assumes exist) from cancer (hamas).

If they were to approach the whole thing the way I would in their place, it would all be over in a couple of hours and the "palestinians" would take their rightful place in the history books alongside amalekites, eastern Bulgars, and the people of the Tangut kingdom.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 09:55 am
@gungasnake,
Krauthammer has it exactly right, but unfortunately it is not politically correct to tell it like it is. In the crazy mixed-up liberal mindset dominated world we live in today, Israel is the villain while the sociopathic terrorists they target are treated as the victims.

I just finished Lee Iococca's book Where Have All the Leaders Gone? in which he laments how differently this modern generation views its world and how wrongheaded that so often is. Many cheer the passing of 2008 and hope for a better 2009. I think many of us hope for the pendulum to swing back to some form of sanity in distinguishing between beneficial and destructive, right and wrong, and good and evil.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 10:15 am
Egyptian military, shoot-to-kill orders for 'palestinians' trying to escape into Egypt:

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5816

0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 10:35 am
From Gunga's link...

Quote:
Early Friday, after wiping out Hamas command centers and bases and 80 percent of their weapons tunnels in six days, the Israeli air force bombed the homes of 20 high-profile leaders and officers.


There is nothing wrong wiht this.
In war, the military and civilian leaders of a govt ARE legitimate targets.
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 01:25 pm
@mysteryman,
4 Isralies killed 400 palistians killed. The isralies did better than we did against the indians. 100 pals killed for every isralie citizen. Very humane. They doing better than the nazis did during the second world war. Cheer on all you conseratives!
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 02:34 pm
@rabel22,
I guess you think the Israelis should ignore all those mostly inaccurate rockets fired by Hamas from Gaza at Israeli civilians. I guess you think the Israelis should plead guilty to continuing to antagonize the Gazians by defending Israeli civilians by counter attacking with mostly accurate rockets, and by remaining members of a Jewish nation with Arab residents who do not shoot rockets at Israelis..
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 02:48 pm
Rabel must have missed this phrase from the Krauthammer piece:
Quote:
This has two purposes. First, counting on the moral scrupulousness of Israel, Hamas figures civilian proximity might help protect at least part of its arsenal. Second, knowing that Israelis have new precision weapons that may allow them to attack nonetheless, Hamas hopes that inevitable collateral damage -- or, if it is really fortunate, an errant Israeli bomb -- will kill large numbers of its own people for which, of course, the world will blame Israel.

For Hamas the only thing more prized than dead Jews are dead Palestinians.


Israel doesn't put its military ammunition, artillery, and/or other installations in residential neighborhoods where it would certainly draw enemy fire into those residential areas.

Hamas does.

Israel provides bomb shelters, reinforced buildings, and other safe haven for civilians where they can duck and cover to prevent injury from the randomly fired rockets that do hit something.

Hamas not only doesn't protect civilians but intentionally puts them in harms way WANTING them to be injured or killed. Dead and maimed civilians are very useful to Hamas as propaganda fodder.

Israel targets enemy positions, rocket launchers, ammo dumps, military leadership, and supply lines.

Hamas targets any innocent men, women, or children that it can hit.

Israel didn't initiate hostilities.

Hamas did.

But however irrational or ostrich like it may be, in certain--not all--liberal minds, Israel is the villain because more Palestinians are dying than Israelis.

I prefer the more predominant conservative point of view on this one.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 04:06 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

What do you think? Some commentators have said WWWIII is underway. Do you agree? Who struck the first blow? Is there a coalition among adversaries of Israel? Will Israel survive this one? Will we?

Excerpt
Quote:
Iran thumbs its nose at Western diplomats and continues nuclear enrichment. Hamas's chief, speaking from Damascus, boasts about kidnapping an Israeli soldier. Hezbollah launches a cross-border raid, prompting Israeli retaliation in Beirut and a return volley of rockets on northern Israel. Just another bleak week in the hopeless Middle East? Regrettably, no. This one was different. This was the week the Dark Side went on the offensive.

Iran, Syria, Hamas, and Hezbollah: These are not marginal fringe groups. The first two are sovereign states, the third forms the elected government of the Palestinian Authority, and the fourth holds 25 of the 128 seats in the Lebanese parliament and, effectively, two ministerial portfolios. This was the week that the rogue regimes of the "Old Middle East"--as opposed to the shadowy, faceless terrorist groups of the "New Middle East"--reminded the world that they too have the potential to grab headlines and wreak havoc. . . .

. . . .That's a lot of tough talk about war, face-offs, and showdowns, even for the Middle East, but what makes this train of events more worrisome than a typical week in the region is that these events--and their perpetrators--are all connected. No, this is not another Middle East conspiracy theory; to paraphrase Henry Kissinger's line about paranoids, sometimes bad guys shooting at you from all directions just might be in cahoots. In fact, the quartet of Iran, Syria, Hamas, and Hezbollah constitutes a better oiled, more cohesive unit than the diplomatic quartet of the United States, the U.N., the E.U., and Russia. Indeed, the rogue foursome is linked ideologically and operationally in a much more organic way than the charter members of the Axis of Evil ever were.

SOURCE


They've been at each others throats for a thousand ******* years. Hardly WWIII. They're all fuckwits. They'll keep fighting each other until one side doesn't exist any more. All because of a bunch of fairy tales. Pull the plug and let the whole worthless shithole sink into the ocean.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 08:59 pm
@Wilso,
Wilso wrote:

They've been at each others throats for a thousand ******* years. Hardly WWIII. They're all fuckwits. They'll keep fighting each other until one side doesn't exist any more. All because of a bunch of fairy tales. Pull the plug and let the whole worthless shithole sink into the ocean.


If there was no land to fight over, the "fairy tales" you refer to would have less meaning. It is land. Just land. You know, the type of stuff all humanity has been fighting over since the dawn of time. But notice the level of interest that people take when Jews are involved in a land fight.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 11:05 pm
@Foofie,
We have invaded country after country over the years, and have been involved many more wars than Israel. Should the USA just sink into that hole?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 12:32 pm
@Foofie,

Gaza wants to exterminate Israel.

Israel wants to exterminate those firing rockets from Gaza into Israel.

Because Israel wants to continue to exist, it must exterminate Gaza.



0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 12:44 pm
While I don't share Wilso's sentiments on this, I have come to the conclusion that an apparently interminable series of 'cease fires' has in no way alleviated or remedied anything. My initial instincts when Israel and Lebanon/Hezbollah first clashed at the beginning of this thread was to pull the plug on 'political correctness', insist that everybody else stay out of it, and allow the two to battle it out until there was a clear winner.

The USA has been involved in intermittant war and wars since its inception. It was founded as the result of war with England. Had there been no clear winner at that time, would the USA and England now be close allies with mostly fond appreciation and regard for each other? Would there be peace, cooperation and even warm regards between England/Germany or the USA/Germany/Japan etc. if there had been no absolute conclusion to WWII? Or would severe tensions remain?

In virtually every case I can think of where a cease fire rather than a clear victory was achieved, tensions and hostilities remain--Korea, Vietnam, the Balkans, the USSR, etc. etc. etc.

Maybe however brutal and bloody the process is in the short term, for the long term allowing war to be fought to a conclusion is at least in some cases possibly better than stopping it in midstream?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 12:55 pm
There are demonstrations world-wide against Israel. I must have missed their earlier demonstrations against the muderous Hamas, al-Qaida, and Hezbollah.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 01:26 pm
Are you drawing an equivalence between Hamas et. al. and Israel?
 

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