ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

"You, Yes You, Stand Still Laddie!*

"Be careful what you wish for."

ican, all in all you're just another brick in the wall. Rabin was a man about to sign in a 2 state system. You remind me of those Rabbis who called for his assassination and danced when it happened.

Which is essentially what the palestinian notion of a One State Solution is.

The notion of a single nation containing both Israelis and Palestinians (jews and muslims) and governed by a secular democracy focused on advancing the interests of all of its citizens and not those of certain groups sounds wonderful, but will not happen.

Even to most secular jews, Israel is a Jewish State. It's origination and its very essence is as a Jewish State, not a state where jews might take up residence. It is the Jewish Homeland, not the home of a lot of jews.

In order to have a single state solution and preserve Israel as a Jewish State one of the following must happen

1) Palestinians must remain a permanent minority
2) Palestinians must remain in permanent second class citizenship
3) The Palestinians living in Israel must convert to judaism

#1 cannot happen if all Palestinians in the region are allowed to live as citizens of Israel. If they do not already outnumber the Israelis, they soon will as a result of higher birth rates.

#2 cannot happen for a number of reasons. The Palestinians would never agree to it, at the very least, half of the Israelis would not allow it, and Israel would become an international pariah.

#3 will not happen because a vast number of muslims will not convert for the sake of a single state solution, and I'm not even sure that conversion makes someone a "jew" under the religious laws of judaism

The Israelis will give up half of Jerusalem before they will agree to The Right of Return. They have not warred with their enemies for all of these years simply to surrender the Jewish Homeland to demographics.

The Two State Solution is the only possible solution and the problems in effecting it, while depressingly enduring, are not as intractable as those standing in the way of a single state solution.

The first barrier to the Two State Solution that must be overcome is the palestinian refusal to accept something less than total victory. Considering their history and their prospects it is astounding that any of them believe that Palestinian control of Israel and the territories is possible and yet too many do. As long as they continue to hold such an outcome as an ultimate goal, they will never come to an agreement with Israel. That they are not content with a nation of their own with Israel as a permanent neighbor is also astounding considering that they have nothing now. The Palestinians seem to have made cutting of their noses to spite their faces a cultural cornerstone.

The second barrier is Israel's inability to trust the Palestinians and to deal with them entirely in good faith. Of course if the first barrier falls it will make it much easier to knock down the second, but a Two State Solution is no solution if one of the two states is split into two pieces with restricted travel between them. Nor can one of the two states be expected to have any chance at prosperity if it is walled off from commerce with the most successful economy in the region. Palestinian violence against Israelis must be foresworn by the Palestinian government and society as an acceptable means of advancing Palestinian interests. The Palestinian government must denounce all terrorist acts and with good faith enforce laws against them.

The third barrier consists of the settlements. Irrespective of whether Israel is dealing from the position of strength (and it is) if it wants a solution and peace it must be prepared to compromise. The settlements are obviously an internal political hot potato for Israel, but there will be no solution without some Israeli pain, and since the legality of these settlements is at least subject to debate, it makes sense that they be the sacrifice Israel must be prepared to make for peace.

Obviously the overriding barrier is the total dysfunctionality of the what amounts to the Palestinian government and even Palestinian society. This seems to be the most intractable of problems and right now there doesn't seem to be the leadership required to unite and direct the palestinian people. Perhaps there is new generation of palestinians waiting in the wings who rather than becoming more hardened than their parents and grandparents are more open to the possibilities of a better life for their people. If not, then one of the things the West should be doing is to either bring western styled education to the territories or young palestinians to western educational institutions. Palestinians need a visionary leader who is capable of imagining a bright future for his or her nation which doesn't require violence to achieve.

Of course there is always the practical solution:

Do whatever it takes to establish the sovereign state of Palestine. Engineer a horrendous attack by Palestine against Israel and declare war. Exterminate all Palestinians.

That's your rebuttal?

When it's the only rebuttal they have. . . .

The fact is, there are some who see Israel as the villain and the Palestinians as the victim. There are some who see Palestinians as the villain and Israel as the victim. There are some who agree with the case presented by each and decide based on the weight of the argument from each side. (These are far and few between)

There are those who rewrite history or cherry pick certain parts of it in order to support their opinions, and there are those who arrive at different opinions even though they do not dismiss any of the history--they simply interpret it differently.

There are some who think villains are defined by the side that is the strongest militarily and thus able to kill more enemy than the enemy is able to kill.

There are those who think the Israelis should not be allowed a homeland for displaced Jews, but that it is okay that the Palestinians have a homeland for displaced Palestinians.

And there are those who think the whole situation is hopeless and that elimination of Israel or the Palestinians is the only solution.

And there are those who are naive enough to believe that there will be peace and stability in the Middle East if the Americans vacate Iraq and the Jews pack up and go elsewhere.

And there are a very few of us who look to long histories of warring peoples who were forced into complicity with peace and now prefer it that way or those who eventually became sufficiently weary of war that they voluntarily found ways of living in peace. We do not believe the situation in the Middle East is hopeless and, if both sides are willing to work toward an honest solution, we believe that a satisfactory solution for everybody is possible.

That will not happen when one side remains resolutely committed to the extermination of the other, however.

Paper: 'Bush intends to attack Iran before the end of his term'RAW STORY
Published: Tuesday May 20, 2008

An article in Tuesday's Jerusalem Post claims that US strikes on Iran are imminent.

"US President George W. Bush intends to attack Iran in the upcoming months, before the end of his term, Army Radio quoted a senior official in Jerusalem as saying Tuesday," the Israeli newspaper reports.

Excerpts from article:

#
The official claimed that a senior member of the president's entourage, which concluded a trip to Israel last week, said during a closed meeting that Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney were of the opinion that military action was called for.

However, the official continued, "the hesitancy of Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice" was preventing the administration from deciding to launch such an attack on the Islamic Republic, for the time being.

The report stated that according to assessments in Israel, recent turmoil in Lebanon, where Hizbullah de facto established control of the country, was advancing an American attack.

#
FULL JERUSALEM POST ARTICLE AT THIS LINK
link

What prompts people to be so rabidly anti-Israel?

I'm not so sure it is anti-semitism, although that is obviously the motivation of some (see Zippo for one).

Is it this insane tendency of people (generally classified as leftists) to believe that anyone on the short end of the temporal stick must be advanced to the end of the sacred stick?

A Romantic urge that I can appreciate with artistic expressions, but when it comes to lives and death, such a silly notion is obscene.

The Palestinians are, without a doubt, the small dogs. The Israelis are, without a doubt, the big dogs.

The inane assume that the small dogs, because of their smallness, are always right.

This is blueflame.

The small dogs, no matter what violence and chaos they sow, are the heroic dogs.

This is a comic book take on life which is appropriate since blueflame is a comic book character.

What prompts people to be so rabidly anti-Israel?

I'm not so sure it is anti-semitism, although that is obviously the motivation of some (see Zippo for one).

Is it this insane tendency of people (generally classified as leftists) to believe that anyone on the short end of the temporal stick must be advanced to the end of the sacred stick?

A Romantic urge that I can appreciate with artistic expressions, but when it comes to lives and death, such a silly notion is obscene.

The Palestinians are, without a doubt, the small dogs. The Israelis are, without a doubt, the big dogs.

The inane assume that the small dogs, because of their smallness, are always right.

This is blueflame.

The small dogs, no matter what violence and chaos they sow, are the heroic dogs.

This is a comic book take on life which is appropriate since blueflame is a comic book character.

What I remind you of is irrelevant to the solution of whether or not, or how, peaceful coexistence can be achieved among the inhabitants of Palestine. Likewise what one or a few Israeli Rabbis choose to advocate is not what the governors of Israel choose to advocate .

It is a fact that the religion of a group of Palestinian Arab gangsters has caused them to be dedicated to both the extermination of the state of Israel in Palestine and the establishment of their own Arab state in all of Palestinian.

It is also a fact that the governors of Israel are dedicated to the survival of the state of Israel in Palestine, and are not opposed to the survival of an Arab state in part of Palestine that chooses to peacefully coexist with Israel.

Further, it is also a fact that neither the Arabs in Palestine nor the Jews in Palestine prior to the 1947 UN two state resolution for Palestine, possessed a legitimate claim to rule all of Palestine.

Everyone kind of knew it, but now it's confirmed by ex-president Carter:

"The US has more than 12,000 nuclear weapons; the Soviet Union (sic) has about the same; Great Britain and France have several hundred, and Israel has 150 or more."

He also described Israeli treatment of Palestinians as "one of the greatest human rights crimes on earth".

He was saying as well that the European position on Israel could be best described as "supine".

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7420573.stm

You think Jimmy Carter's judgment credible?
I sure don't. I think he was the worst president America ever had.

Why do you guess such? That are his quotes - and not only reported by the BBC, if you think they're biased.





That wasn't the topic at the annual literary Hay Festival in Wales as far as I know. Nor did the report discuss such.

After Olmert included Israel among a list of nuclear states in comments in December 2006 we now got the confirmation of such by a former US president.

link

You think Jimmy Carter's judgment of Israel credible?

I sure don't.

I think Jimmy Carter's incompetent judgment was repeatedly demonstrated while he served one four year term as the worst president America ever had.

ican, at least give credit where it's do. Such as the Camp David Accords.

Please remind me what were the actual--not promised--consequences of the Camp David Accords?

ican, "Negotiations between Egypt and Israel to implement the accords led to the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty signed at the White House on March 26, 1979. The two nations ended the state of war between them and exchanged ambassadors, and Israel gradually withdrew from the Sinai Peninsula." A great achievement.

You are right! I forgot about that. It certainly was a great achievement.

All I had remembered was that Sadat was murdered by some Egyptian gangsters for his contribution to that peace treaty.