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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 08:24 pm
Advocate wrote:
CI, you seem to have a great affection for terrorists. Do you also love al-Qaida?


Quit trying to divert my question with your silly one. Answer my question?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 08:58 pm
Well, it seems that Israel, through pressure from the Bush administration, won't use the terrorist attacks from the Palestinian militants as a pretext to subvert the peace talks with the moderate Palestinians backed by the Bush administration, as claimed by an Israeli official as quoted by The Independent today, ""so as not to punish moderate Palestinians for actions by people who are not just our enemies but theirs as well". We'll see how far that goes.

Talks on Palestinian state to continue despite right-wing fury

By Donald Macintyre
Saturday, 8 March 2008


Israel yesterday pledged to continue negotiations with the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank, despite a deadly attack on a Jewish seminary which is suspected to have been carried out by Hamas.


An Israeli official said his government would press on with the talks "so as not to punish moderate Palestinians for actions by people who are not just our enemies but theirs as well".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/talks-on-palestinian-state-to-continue-despite-rightwing-fury-793158.html
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 09:17 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Advocate, What's the matter with you? Really. If you had no legal rights in the US, and the majority government took away your property without any compensation, job, funded your childrens school at much lower rates, and restricted your movemet with fences, check points, and gus, in the US and elsewhere, how would you feel?


Is there any possibility that you might become a suicide bomber? Answer truthfully.

That is nothing more than a diversionary hypothetical question based on nothing related to the Israeli and Palestinian Arab dispute.

Try this one. If you and yours were located in a neighborhood where your neighbors were repeatedly trying to murder you, absent a protecting police force, might you choose to do whatever you could to murder them first? Answer truthfully.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 02:51 am
As violence spirals and calls for peace talks grow, extremists say they will build a new West Bank settlement for each of the eight students killed:

Settlers vow revenge over Jerusalem massacre
Quote:

Israel's far-right settler movement has set itself on a renewed collision course with the government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, declaring that last week's massacre in a Jewish religious school had targeted them directly and vowing to build a new illegal outpost in the West Bank for every one of the killed students.

Amid a sense of spiralling crisis in Israeli and the Occupied Territories - which has stemmed from the impression that both Olmert and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas are rudderless amid the climbing violence - Abbas performed yet another policy U-turn, calling for new talks with Israel after having earlier appeared to back away from peace talks.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 02:51 am
Comment: Faced with a doomsday scenario, Israel must sit down with Hamas
Quote:

[...]
Since Israel's disastrous invasion of Lebanon in 2006 in response to rocket attacks and the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers by its fighters, Hizbollah has been itching for a rematch. When Imad Fayez Mugniyeh, Hizbollah's military chief and author of dozens of terrorist attacks, was assassinated last month, the Islamic movement promised bloody revenge.

Hizbollah has no doubt been flooded with military hardware from Iran, where Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has made no secret of his desire to destroy Israel. He also shares some of the fantasies of extremist Christians that the end is nigh, that this is desirable, and that a messiah (or mahdi) will rise out of the ashes of a final battle between good and evil at Armageddon (a real place, now called Megiddo, in northern Israel).

Even if Hamas and Hizbollah's ambitions remain more mundane, trapping Israel into a massive attack on Gaza remains a significant threat to the Jewish state, not least because in a US election year another Middle Eastern conflagration will strengthen growing American fears that Israel is not a strategic asset in the region but a liability.

Hamas remains popular on the West Bank, and dominant in Gaza, as much for what it stands for as for what it is not. It is not the Palestinian Authority or Fatah, the movement founded by Yasser Arafat, which has been in on-off talks with Israel since 1993. The negotiations, from a Palestinian perspective, have yielded nothing, but have produced a class of sharp-suited professional talkers, President Mahmoud Abbas, Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei, and chief negotiator Saeb Erekat among them.

Hamas, meanwhile, has been 'martyred'. Aid from the EU and the US intended to keep the administration of the Palestinian territories alive was cut the moment Hamas was elected in 2006, and is now only channelled to the West Bank, which is under PA/Fatah control.

Since Hamas took over from the PA/ Fatah in a civil war in Gaza last year, the enclave of 1.5 million people has been under a strangulating siege imposed by Israel in response to the Islamic movement's almost daily rocket attacks. Gazans feel collectively punished for the actions of Hamas and are often more likely to support the organisation.

Ahmed Yusef, senior adviser to the Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, (who is in hiding from Israeli attack) said Hamas wanted negotiations with Israel. Although it is committed to the destruction of the 'Zionist entity', he said 'we could put that to one side for five or 10 years and see how peace worked out'.

This is hardly an olive branch. Hamas has been labelled a terrorist organisation by the US, the UK, and most of Israel's backers. Yusef said: 'So what? Negotiations are between enemies, not friends.'

But Hamas's desire for negotiations does offer Israel a way out of Hamas's doomsday trap, and, according to a recent poll in Israel's leading daily newspaper Ha'aretz, 64 per cent of Israelis agree. They said what was until recently unthinkable - that Israel should talk to Hamas.

If Israel defied Washington and talked to Hamas, Palestinian support for its rocket attacks, which in any case cause much more suffering to Gazans than Israelis, would naturally wane and that could lead to the ceasefire the whole region so desperately needs.

ยท Sam Kiley's film on Hamas for 'Unreported World' is due to be shown on Channel 4 on 28 March at 7.35pm
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 08:27 am
Here si a solution that should make everyone happy.

Israel will pull out of the west bank and leave it to the Palestinians.
Of course when they do, they will totally destroy every power plant, hospital, gas station, road, sewer system, house, garden, orchard, and every other building or piece of infrastructure they have built.

They will then totally block access to Israeli ports and totally block movement from the West Bank and Gaza into Israel.
They will not allow any entity that is supporting the Palestinians, in any way, shape, or form to use their airports, harbors, or roads.

In other words, they will return the West Bank to the exact same condition it was in when Israel was created.

Does that seem fair?
It does to me.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 08:55 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Advocate wrote:
CI, you seem to have a great affection for terrorists. Do you also love al-Qaida?


Quit trying to divert my question with your silly one. Answer my question?



Your premise is faulty and misleading.

I will say that Israel has been extremely restrained in its responses to the unrelenting vicious attacks on its civilians by the Pals.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 09:07 am
Advocate wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Advocate wrote:
CI, you seem to have a great affection for terrorists. Do you also love al-Qaida?


Quit trying to divert my question with your silly one. Answer my question?



Your premise is faulty and misleading.

I will say that Israel has been extremely restrained in its responses to the unrelenting vicious attacks on its civilians by the Pals.


Yea I know; I don't know why they haven't let a nuke loose on them and end this thing once and for all.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 09:12 am
A nuclear exchange, unfortunately, may be in the cards.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 10:30 am
Advocate wrote:
A nuclear exchange, unfortunately, may be in the cards.


YOur answer only shows your ignorance about nukes.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 12:10 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Advocate wrote:
A nuclear exchange, unfortunately, may be in the cards.


YOur answer only shows your ignorance about nukes.


I know "exchange" implies both having nukes which Palestinians do not. It will be just one way if it happens.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 02:30 pm
I usually dislike posting long articles, but this one leaves out sentimental PC stuff and rather objectively summarizes Israel's current situation in dealing with the Palestinians. I hope the anti-Israel folks here will read it. It otherwise pretty well preaches to the choir. (Emphasis mine)

Excerpted summary:
Quote:
Without the rocket firings there would be no economic blockade of Gaza and no Israeli air campaign. Life in Gaza would be infinitely better. Why doesn't Hamas embrace this much better life for its citizens, which would certainly not require it to give up its goal of running an independent Palestinian state?

There are four interlocking, plausible answers: it wants to damage Israel internationally, radicalise other Palestinians, ensure Israel's policy of disengagement from the Palestinians fails, and serve Hamas's Iranian and Syrian sponsors. Consider each of the four.


Islamists leave Israel no choice
The Australian
Greg Sheridan, Foreign editor
March 08, 2008

THE attack yesterday in Jerusalem on a Jewish religious school in which eight civilians died disclosed important political trends.

It showed once more the depths of the divisions within the Palestinian leadership.

The Palestinian Authority, under its President Mahmoud Abbas, condemned the attack.

On the other hand, Hamas, the Palestinian leadership in the Gaza Strip, praised the attack and Gazan civilians danced in the streets with joy. And the Israeli public understood once more that there is no proximate chance of peace in their long-running dispute with the Palestinians.

George W. Bush and Condoleezza Rice have their reasons for continuing to pretend that there might be a peace agreement this year, but if they really believe this, which is unlikely, they could do more harm than good to the region.

The Gazan reaction to the Jerusalem attack also illustrates why, probably later this year, it is almost inevitable that there will be a huge Israeli operation in Gaza. Many people will die. The suffering will be acute.

Yet it is almost as if this is exactly what Hamas wants. It is impossible otherwise to explain its actions.

Once more the Middle East is set to pivot this year. There are a range of churning dynamics, some of vast strategic consequence, others more tactical improvisations, all happening at once. For the moment, Gaza is their centre, or at least it is possible to understand much of what is happening by focusing on Gaza. In 2006, in relatively free elections, Hamas, which is a branch of the extremist Islamist movement the Muslim Brotherhood, won elections among the Palestinians. It did not secure a majority of the vote but it legitimately won.

Subsequently, in a ferocious, bloody and extremely cruel civil war among the Palestinians, Fatah, loyal to Abbas, consolidated itself in the West Bank while Hamas consolidated its rule in Gaza.

Hamas is less corrupt and more efficient than Fatah but it is a ferocious terrorist organisation. In recent months it has shown how willing it is to sacrifice its own people in order to pursue its war against Israel. However, it is wrong to imagine that Hamas is in any sense a mad group. Its strategy is rational. It is also difficult for the Western mind to grasp because of two elements: its genuinely religious foundation, and its willingness to inflict any suffering not only on its enemies, but on its own people.

Over recent months terrorists have fired mainly Qassam rockets from Gaza into Israel almost on a daily basis. It is true that they have killed few people. But they have terrorised the citizens of the small Israeli city of Sderot and the nearby kibbutzes and farms. Further, Hamas and other terrorist groups have smuggled weapons and people across the border from Egypt. When recently this border was smashed by Palestinian civilians and left open for several days, before the Egyptians closed it down again, much more such smuggling went on.

Gaza's terrorists have slowly been improving the range, explosive power and precision of their rockets. But now they also have a number of Grad rockets, and indeed some others, some of them apparently of Iranian manufacture, to fire at Israel.

Some of these have hit the Israeli city of Ashkelon, with more than 100,000 people.

This has necessitated an Israeli response. Israel tries to suppress the rocket fire by taking out Hamas and other terrorist leaders, and by destroying from the air Qassam factories and launching points. Although Israel tries not to hit civilians, inevitably some Gazan civilians are hit and killed in these actions.

Further, Israel has imposed a limited economic blockade on Gaza, for which it has been widely criticised. However, it is inconceivable that any nation would allow endless rocket attacks on its civilians without trying to stop them. If the Gaza terrorists could do this with impunity, it would inspire other terrorists to do the same. Hezbollah, intensely rebuilding its capacities in southern Lebanon, could begin launching rockets again from there. Similarly, Israeli security forces have found and destroyed some rocket-making ventures in the West Bank. While the rockets from Gaza have been a tactical rather than strategic threat to Israel, rockets fired simultaneously from Gaza, southern Lebanon and the West Bank would completely paralyse Israel. Therefore Israel ultimately cannot allow the rocket attacks to go on, especially as they increase in lethality and range. There is a marvellous irony in much of the international community demanding that the power station in Ashkelon supply electricity to the rocket factories in Gaza which are trying to destroy it.

Without the rocket firings there would be no economic blockade of Gaza and no Israeli air campaign. Life in Gaza would be infinitely better. Why doesn't Hamas embrace this much better life for its citizens, which would certainly not require it to give up its goal of running an independent Palestinian state?

There are four interlocking, plausible answers: it wants to damage Israel internationally, radicalise other Palestinians, ensure Israel's policy of disengagement from the Palestinians fails, and serve Hamas's Iranian and Syrian sponsors. Consider each of the four.


On Monday night, the ABC's Lateline program ran a report on the suffering of civilians in Gaza, an absolutely legitimate subject. Among the heart-rending footage there was an interview with a Gazan civilian who understandably complained bitterly about Israel's actions. But the ABC reporter didn't ask the absolutely obvious question: Do you wish your leaders would stop firing missiles into Israel, which make inevitable both the economic blockade and the Israeli military response? The ABC, as usual, was following more or less exactly the terrorists' preferred script for the Western media. Islamist terrorists have always been centrally concerned with the Western media and their understanding of its story presentation dynamics is acute, as this episode demonstrates. Hamas gets to sheet all blame to Israel.

Second, Hamas is trying to radicalise more Palestinian opinion. Palestinian politics has evolved from nationalism to religious extremism as the rise of Hamas demonstrates.

Palestinian opinion is not only divided between Hamas and Fatah, a division the Israelis are trying to exploit by making life better in the West Bank and more miserable in Gaza, to give Palestinians an incentive to return to secularism and negotiations with Israel rather than nihilist, suicidal terrorism. But Hamas and Fatah are both internally divided as well. Hamas is much stronger even on the West Bank than most commentators allow. Some in Fatah want to try to reclaim credibility by renewed armed conflict with Israel. This would plunge their people once more into terrible suffering but would allow them to compete with Hamas in the dynamics of zealotry.

Third, Hamas is determined to prevent the Israeli policy of disengagement from the Palestinian territories from succeeding. Thirty months ago, then Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon pulled out of Gaza, evacuating all the Jewish settlements. Sharon then founded a party, Kadima, on the basis of disengagement.

The Palestinians would be behind their borders and could run whatever sort of society they liked, provided they didn't attack Israel. But the religious extremist leadership of groups like Hamas does not believe that Israel has any right to exist under any circumstances. This is enshrined in Hamas's charter and in all its propaganda. Therefore they want to ensure that no matter what happens, Israel still bears moral and political responsibility for the Palestinian population.

Eventually, Palestinians believe they might triumph by demographics alone. The Palestinian birthrate is much higher than the Israeli birthrate and ultimately it might become impossible for the Israeli state to provide for its own security with an unreconciled Palestinian population. This is a multi-generational strategy and if it is the strategy of some Hamas leaders, it means they really want the opposite of what the international community claims to want from Israel.

Israel is always told to retreat to the 1967 borders. The two places where it has done this - southern Lebanon and Gaza - have been disasters for Israel and have not produced peace. The 1967 borders only work for Israel if its neighbours don't make war on Israel any more. There is no indication at all that either Hamas or Hezbollah, or indeed Iran, which soon enough will possess nuclear weapons, is on a trajectory towards accepting Israel's right to exist.

And finally, Hamas may well be operating in very close concert with its sponsors, Iran and Syria. There is tremendous Sunni Arab concern about the growing power of Iran, evident not least in the bloody political vacuum in Lebanon.

A crisis in Gaza forces the forthcoming Arab summit to focus on the Palestinians, rather than Syria's murderous campaign to prevent the emergence of a democratic Lebanon.

After the situation in Lebanon becomes clearer, a huge Israeli operation in Gaza, to take control of the Gaza-Egypt border and to set up new intelligence mechanisms within Gaza, all to prevent the increase in rocket firings, is perhaps all but inevitable.

Peace is as distant as ever.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23337782-7583,00.html
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 03:54 pm
Palestinians rejoiced in the street when we (9/11) was attacked as well; but we didn't use that as an excuse to plan a huge Gaza attack. The shooter was from East Jerusalem; he was not from Gaza.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 04:52 pm
We would have had Hamas claimed responsibility for 9/11 instead of Al Qaida, and Gaza is where the Hamas leadership was headquartered.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 07:40 am
Quote:


Fox News source



Hamas not claiming responsibility 'yet' for Israel killings

Israel halts air strikes and raids into Gaza
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 08:17 am
Found something interesting on the site I was on previously. It is dated yesterday so decisions might of changed. But tell me; how does this help Israel's security or in any way be blamed on Palestinians shooting off rockets into Israel?

Olmert OKs 750 settler homes

Quote:
Occupied Jerusalem: Israel will build up to 750 new homes in the occupied West Bank, close to Jerusalem, according to officials.

The announcement comes three days after a Palestinian gunman shot dead eight students at a seminary in Occupied Jerusalem.

An official said the decision was taken after meeting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who has barred ministries from ordering new construction in settlements.

Israel Radio reported that the ultra-Orthodox Shas party threatened to pullout of the governing coalition unless construction was approved.

The announcement will likely further complicated already stalled peace-talks.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 08:54 am
revel wrote:
Palestinians rejoiced in the street when we (9/11) was attacked as well; but we didn't use that as an excuse to plan a huge Gaza attack. The shooter was from East Jerusalem; he was not from Gaza.



The huge attack on Gaza was underway before the attack on the seminary. The Gaza attack was largely due to the Hamas use of longer-range missiles to hit a large city in Israel.

It appears that Hez had something to do with the seminary attack, but I am not sure whether this has been proven yet. An attack on a school is within the MO of either group.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 09:18 pm
Quote:
The Gaza attack was largely due to the Hamas use of longer-range missiles to hit a large city in Israel.


Yea; or it could be planned with the thought of making room for the new houses planned on being built in Gaza.

U.N. blasts Israel for West Bank housing expansion plan
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2008 08:51 am
revel wrote:
Quote:
The Gaza attack was largely due to the Hamas use of longer-range missiles to hit a large city in Israel.


Yea; or it could be planned with the thought of making room for the new houses planned on being built in Gaza.

U.N. blasts Israel for West Bank housing expansion plan



You really need to read more carefully. The new homes are planned for E. Jerusalem, on land taken in the '67 war.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2008 09:09 am
I'm not sure who lacks reading skills here, but it's not revel.


Palestine Monitor factsheet
East Jerusalem
"The 75 km Wall being built in East Jerusalem is an instrument of social engineering designed to achieve the Judaization of Jerusalem by reducing the number of Palestinians in the city."

Professor John Dugard, UN Special Rapporteur

East Jerusalem: The Facts
0 Replies
 
 

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