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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 06:05 pm
And earlier:

Advocate wrote:
The King David hotel was British headquarters during the revolutionary war in Israel. The Brits were killing Jews, and the latter's attack was legal.


(emphasis added)
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 08:01 pm
Right! I may have been wrong since there is evidently no law deciding either way.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2007 08:53 pm
Here is a key distinction regarding the Pal terrorists.

Analysis: Why the N. Ireland comparison doesn't fit
By HERB KEINON


On the day that the British Parliament's Foreign Affairs Committee called for a reassessment of Britain's Mideast policy, including dialogue with Hamas and Hizbullah, the Labor Party chairman of the committee, Mike Gapes, once again drew comparisons between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the troubles in Northern Ireland.

Saying that the lessons of Northern Ireland, where the Irish Republican Army moved away from terrorism and into political dialogue with Britain, should be applied to the Middle East, Gapes said: "I think from experience in Northern Ireland, you know that sometimes you have to engage with people in a diplomatic way, sometimes quietly."

Ah, would that it were so. Would that Hamas would have proven itself to be a latter-day IRA. Indeed, were that true, Hamas would be willing to renounce violence and decommission its arms, as the IRA did.

The difference between the two situations is enormous.

The first is that the basic goal of the IRA was to bring about a united Ireland, to bring Ireland to Ulster, not to London. The IRA never posited as its goal the replacement of England with Ireland.

Contrast that to Hamas, whose stated goal is Palestinian rule not only in Gaza and the West Bank, but in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa as well.

Furthermore, while the IRA hated the British, and killed innocent Brits, while they saw Britain as the enemy, they never denied the legitimacy of the British state. IRA leaders never gave blood curling lectures and sermons lauding the day when there would be no England, when Catholic rule would reign in Britain. There was no intent to chase the Queen from her throne, or to purify Westminster Abbey.

The IRA never aimed to destroy Britain, or to chase every last Protestant out of Ireland. The same cannot be said of Hamas.

The IRA was a brutal terrorist organization, but it was a terrorist organization so different from the ones that Israel has had to cope with. A terrorist organization that sometimes sent warnings before the bombs blew up; that did not have the support of the Catholic Church; whose violent actions were not supported by most of those in whose name it acted; which did not carry out suicide attacks; and which did not sanctify death and perpetuate a death cult.

Also the IRA didn't really pose a grave threat to any of Britain's neighbors. Granted, at times it made common cause with the Basque separatists in Spain, but neither Spain, France, Belgium, the Netherlands or Germany were threatened by the IRA.

Contrast that to Hamas and Hizbullah, whose radical brands of Islam threaten Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon, to say nothing of Saudi Arabia.

Indeed, although the troubles pit the Catholics against the Protestants, the violence in Northern Ireland was not the manifestation of a religious war, but a political one. Since the 1960s, the conflict was at its core over borders. The Catholic nationalists sought to unify Ireland, and the loyalist Protestants wanted to stay put as part of Britain.

Not so our conflict. The war in Lebanon has hammered home to many - at least in Israel - that what we are faced with is not a territorial conflict, as so many long thought, but rather a religious one. This was made evident because Hizbullah had no genuine territorial claims on Israel, yet it killed and kidnapped IDF soldiers and provoked a war last summer anyhow.

Most attempts to solve the Arab-Israeli conflict since 1967 were based on the premise that it was a territorial conflict. Look at UN Security Resolution 242: Israel gives up land, and gets peace in return.
www.jpost.com
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Aug, 2007 01:39 pm
More blatant sophistry.

The IRA sought the elimination of the Government of Northern Ireland and its absorption into the Republic of Ireland. The Stormont government of Northern Ireland was in the hands of a (then) slim Protestant (and mostly Scottish) majority, which misused its powers to systematically against the (then) Irish Catholic minority. They did this with the implicit support of their patron, the government of the UK.

The proper analogy here is between the IRA and the Palestinian organizations; the (former) Stormount government of Northern Ireland and the Zionist government of Israel; and the patrons, the UK and in the case of Israel the United States. This analogy is remarkably apt in all its parts.

The conflict in Northern Ireland ended when the patron (the UK) woke up to the injustice and intolerance the creature it was supporting was inflicting on its victims, and the warring parties in Ireland both realized they must make a compromise. The IRA gave up the demand for the complete destruction of the state in Northern Ireland and its incorporation into the Republic. The Protestants of Northern Ireland, in turn, agreed to end their discrimination and treat all of their residents on the same basis. The former Catholic minority in northern Ireland is now a majority, however it has shown no inclination for revenge or retribution. Both sides have - after centuries of struggle - come to realize that justice for all provides the only hope of lasting peace.

Advocate's cited piece merely defines the analogy differently and thereby attempts to suggest that it offers no lessons for the Mideast. This is a form of sophistry worthy of the most zealous medieval or Talmudic practicioner. The truth is the situations are entirely analogous and the lessons of the Northern Ireland conflict do indeed apply to the Mideast.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Aug, 2007 03:36 pm
George, I agree that your analogy is blatant sophistry.

Prior to their attack in '67, the Pals had their own Palestine, in which Israelis had never set foot (despite hundreds of attacks by the Pals). But the Pals held to the belief that, with others, they could destroy Israel.

Israel is still willing to negotiate a fair agreement. However, the Pals (especially Hamas) remain committed to destroying Israel.

Actually, your analogy is beyond sophistry. It is really stupid.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Aug, 2007 03:46 pm
Tightening the screws on Iran sounds like Iraq redux.

Excerpt:

US may brand elite Iran guards terrorists


By Demetri Sevastopulo in Washington and Gareth Smyth in Tehran
Updated: 2 minutes ago

The Bush administration is considering designating the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a terrorist organisation in an effort to ratchet up pressure on the government in Tehran.

Washington has grown increasingly frustrated with Iran's alleged support for insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. The move to place the elite military force on the "specially designated global terrorist" list also reflects the administration's view that United Nations sanctions are failing to prevent Iran from proceeding with its nuclear programme.

Source
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Aug, 2007 03:57 pm
Should it be a consideration that Iran is allegedly doing what we did when the Afghans were repulsing the USSR. It seems like rank hypocrisy.

BTW, we have certainly earned the hatred of Iran. The country was one of two democracies in the ME when we helped depose their elected PM, and then replaced him with a king (the Shah). Now we are talking about bombing Iran because they are developing the bomb, which we long ago developed.

Wow!
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Aug, 2007 04:01 pm
Advocate wrote:
George, I agree that your analogy is blatant sophistry.

Prior to their attack in '67, the Pals had their own Palestine, in which Israelis had never set foot (despite hundreds of attacks by the Pals). But the Pals held to the belief that, with others, they could destroy Israel.

Israel is still willing to negotiate a fair agreement. However, the Pals (especially Hamas) remain committed to destroying Israel.

Actually, your analogy is beyond sophistry. It is really stupid.


Since 1967 all of what was once called Palestine has been under Israeli rule. Unfortunately the treatment of the residents of this land for the past forty years by the ruling Israeli government has been unequal and unjust in the extreme. The intifada and the Palestinian resistence are the direct result of that injustice. If Israel wishes to rule that land it must demonstrate that it can rise above the tribal theocracy some (but not all) of its founders have fashioned since it was created. Israel is unable to face the contradictions implicit in the expansionist Zionism that remains its policy. and, instead, hides behind the fact that some of its enemies wish for its elimination (just as did the IRA wish for the Stormount government in Northern Ireland), using that as the excuse for its continued oppression, ethnic cleansing, and expansion. Ian Paisley would be quite at home the milieu of Israeli politics.

There is nothing "stupid" in that analogy. Your resort to mere name-calling is itself an indicator of the emptiness of your arguments.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 11:58 am
I have to admit that Israel's treatment of the Pals has been "unequal." I guess the country feels it necessary to treat unequally those who try to maim and kill its civilians. If you had a neighbor on one side who threw rocks at you and your family, you would certainly treat that neighbor differently than the peaceful neighbor on the the other side.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 08:26 am
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 08:51 am
The Palestinians had sought amnesty for more than 200 wanted men in this latest round, most from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement, said Riad al-Malki, the Palestinian minister of information.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 06:00 am
It could be that, in the next engagement, Lebanon will be toast.


Breaking News

Does Hezbollah have WMDs?

Published: 08/19/2007


Hezbollah may have biological or chemical weapons, according to a top Arab pundit.



Hezbollah's leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, said in a speech last week that, should Israel again go to war in Lebanon, it would face a "surprise that will change the fate of the region".



The unspecified threat prompted Abdul Bari Atwan, editor of Al-Quds Al-Arabi newspaper, to argue at the weekend that the Iranian-backed Lebanese militia may have weapons of mass-destruction.



"Nasrallah is a person who does not lie," Atwan wrote in the influential London-based daily.



Noting that Hezbollah's arsenal of thousands of rockets, and its willingness to use them against Israel, became manifest facts during last year's Lebanon war, Atwan said that "from an initial examination it can be understood that these rockets, or part of them, can be outfitted with chemical or biological warheads".



"Just as Hezbollah did not hesitate to attack the Israeli hinterland with rockets, it would not be surprising or unusual if he were to employ weapons of mass-destruction in a new confrontation," added Atwan.



Hezbollah did not respond to the article. Israeli officials have not publicly speculated on the nature of Nasrallah's threat, made on the anniversary of the August 14, 2006 ceasefire that ended the Lebanon war.

--JTA.org
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AbandonAllHope
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 08:26 am
Israel, hamas,hezbolha,syria, world war lll?
Listen, the sooner the Israeli army wipes syria and its pawns off the map, the better.Are the Israeli people supposed to wait until Syria gets its new fleet of MiG 31E supersonic jetfighters from Russia? Hell no, right now we have air superiority. We wait for a few years, and those sneaky russian sluts will have armed every anti-Israeli group in the reigon with state of the art air defence systems, and some of the best jets in the world. We have to hit that arab scum, in Damascus,Beirut, and Tehran, before they cripple our brothers and sisters in Israel. And i know i dont even need to mention what happens if those cunts the Iranians, are allowed to develop nuclear weapons...
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 08:47 am
AAH, welcome to the board.

Israel is in an untenable situation. It is surrounded by a billion enemies. I just hope that the country has great intelligence, so that its military actions are carefully measured.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 09:05 am
We have heard this kind of rhetoric before - in Germany during the 1930s. What a sad transformation!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 09:09 am
History continues to repeat itself; some peoples need to feel superior over others will continue into the far future of mankind.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 09:27 am
georgeob1 wrote:
We have heard this kind of rhetoric before - in Germany during the 1930s. What a sad transformation!


Shocked

I assume you are referring to AbandonAllHope's post, do you really think that bears the same resemblance?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 09:47 am
Yes I do. You can easily verify this yourself if you are really curious to know the truth.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 10:48 am
The Poles were getting armed by Russia and threatening Germany?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 12:33 pm
Re: Israel, hamas,hezbolha,syria, world war lll?
AbandonAllHope wrote:
Listen, the sooner the Israeli army wipes syria and its pawns off the map, the better.Are the Israeli people supposed to wait until Syria gets its new fleet of MiG 31E supersonic jetfighters from Russia? Hell no, right now we have air superiority. We wait for a few years, and those sneaky russian sluts will have armed every anti-Israeli group in the reigon with state of the art air defence systems, and some of the best jets in the world. We have to hit that arab scum, in Damascus,Beirut, and Tehran, before they cripple our brothers and sisters in Israel. And i know i dont even need to mention what happens if those **** the Iranians, are allowed to develop nuclear weapons...


Quote:
"...the greater the number of Jews liquidated, the more consolidated will the situation in Europe be after this war."

Joseph Goebbels, March 6, 1942
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