ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

georgeob1 wrote:

Advocate wrote:

Israel has checkpoints in the WB because there are unremitting attacks on Jewish civilians, in and out of Israel proper. There is no valid reason that Jews cannot live in the WB and Gaza; after all, Arabs may live in Israel.

I selected this, perhaps the most egregious distortion from a post filled with it.

The checkpoints within the West Bank control the movements and social/economic activity of the Palestinians, and protect Israeli settlements there. The Jews who live in the West Bank are citizens of Israel and are treated as though they are residents of Israel itself. Conversely, the Palestinian iunhabitants of the region have no political rights whatever. They are treated as neither residents nor citizens of Israel. Evidently in the eyes of Israel, its territory follows the footprints of its settlers, wherever they are. Moreover Israel believes it is morally empowered to treat its extraterritorial citizens as residents of Israel, while ignoring the existence and political rights of the people whose lands they seize and who live among them.

The obvious solution to this, at least obvious to me anyways, is to allow Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but tell them they will be under Palestinian jurisdiction if they choose to live there. They will pay taxes and utilities and what not to the Palestinian government and receive whatever they need from Palestinian sources.

Jews get to live in WB, Palestine receives the benefits of a population.

If the jews in the settlements don't like it, they can move back to Israel proper.

The obvious solution to this, at least obvious to me anyways, is to allow Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but tell them they will be under Palestinian jurisdiction if they choose to live there. They will pay taxes and utilities and what not to the Palestinian government and receive whatever they need from Palestinian sources.

Jews get to live in WB, Palestine receives the benefits of a population.

If the jews in the settlements don't like it, they can move back to Israel proper.

McGentrix wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Advocate wrote:

Israel has checkpoints in the WB because there are unremitting attacks on Jewish civilians, in and out of Israel proper. There is no valid reason that Jews cannot live in the WB and Gaza; after all, Arabs may live in Israel.

I selected this, perhaps the most egregious distortion from a post filled with it.

The checkpoints within the West Bank control the movements and social/economic activity of the Palestinians, and protect Israeli settlements there. The Jews who live in the West Bank are citizens of Israel and are treated as though they are residents of Israel itself. Conversely, the Palestinian iunhabitants of the region have no political rights whatever. They are treated as neither residents nor citizens of Israel. Evidently in the eyes of Israel, its territory follows the footprints of its settlers, wherever they are. Moreover Israel believes it is morally empowered to treat its extraterritorial citizens as residents of Israel, while ignoring the existence and political rights of the people whose lands they seize and who live among them.

The obvious solution to this, at least obvious to me anyways, is to allow Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but tell them they will be under Palestinian jurisdiction if they choose to live there. They will pay taxes and utilities and what not to the Palestinian government and receive whatever they need from Palestinian sources.

Jews get to live in WB, Palestine receives the benefits of a population.

If the jews in the settlements don't like it, they can move back to Israel proper.

An excellent solution which I wholeheartedly agree with.

Cycloptichorn

Once again you ignore and evade clearly stated issues, retreating behind the now well-worn collection of cant and cliches.

georgeob1 wrote:

Once again you ignore and evade clearly stated issues, retreating behind the now well-worn collection of cant and cliches.

Like Israel, Lebanon is now having serious problems with its jihadist fanatics. Like Israel's, Lebanon's jihadist fanatics are also mass murdering non-murderers.

George, Lebanon appeared to better meet your criteria for an "open society." What is your explanation of the cause of Lebanon's current problems?

ican711nm wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Once again you ignore and evade clearly stated issues, retreating behind the now well-worn collection of cant and cliches.

Like Israel, Lebanon is now having serious problems with its jihadist fanatics. Like Israel's, Lebanon's jihadist fanatics are also mass murdering non-murderers.

George, Lebanon appeared to better meet your criteria for an "open society." What is your explanation of the cause of Lebanon's current problems?

Israel stirred the pot and crushed the local economy. How hard is that to figure out?

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Once again you ignore and evade clearly stated issues, retreating behind the now well-worn collection of cant and cliches.

Like Israel, Lebanon is now having serious problems with its jihadist fanatics. Like Israel's, Lebanon's jihadist fanatics are also mass murdering non-murderers.

George, Lebanon appeared to better meet your criteria for an "open society." What is your explanation of the cause of Lebanon's current problems?

Israel stirred the pot and crushed the local economy. How hard is that to figure out?

Cycloptichorn

I asked George not you. Your response is silly malarkey.

...
Many of the Jews who settle in the West Bank are religious conservatives who believe the land was given to them by God. They will not submit to any Muslim authority or pay taxes to help sustain them.

Many of the non-Israeli Palestinian arabs are religious conservatives who believe the land was given to them by God. They will not submit to any Jewish authority or pay taxes to help sustain them.

As with most conservatives, religious or political, it is a my way or no way situation. They will not leave and they will not owe any allegience of any kind to a people they see as no better than animals.

The majority of Jews in Israel, especially the conservative ones, see Palestinians in the same light as the Nazi's saw the Jews. Can you imagine a group of committed Nazi's paying taxes to Jews in a Jewish enclave?

The majority of Arabs not in Israel, especially the conservative ones, see Jews in the same light as the Nazi's saw the Jews. Can you imagine a group of committed Nazi's allowing a Jewish enclave to live free among them and pay them taxes?

The majority of Jews in Israel, especially the conservative ones, see Palestinians in the same light as the Nazi's saw the Jews. Can you imagine a group of committed Nazi's paying taxes to Jews in a Jewish enclave?

The majority of Arabs not in Israel, especially the conservative ones, see Jews in the same light as the Nazi's saw the Jews. Can you imagine a group of committed Nazi's allowing a Jewish enclave to live free among them and pay them taxes?

ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Once again you ignore and evade clearly stated issues, retreating behind the now well-worn collection of cant and cliches.

Like Israel, Lebanon is now having serious problems with its jihadist fanatics. Like Israel's, Lebanon's jihadist fanatics are also mass murdering non-murderers.

George, Lebanon appeared to better meet your criteria for an "open society." What is your explanation of the cause of Lebanon's current problems?

Israel stirred the pot and crushed the local economy. How hard is that to figure out?

Cycloptichorn

I asked George not you. Your response is silly malarkey.

No it isn't.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Once again you ignore and evade clearly stated issues, retreating behind the now well-worn collection of cant and cliches.

Like Israel, Lebanon is now having serious problems with its jihadist fanatics. Like Israel's, Lebanon's jihadist fanatics are also mass murdering non-murderers.

George, Lebanon appeared to better meet your criteria for an "open society." What is your explanation of the cause of Lebanon's current problems?

Israel stirred the pot and crushed the local economy. How hard is that to figure out?

Cycloptichorn

I asked George not you. Your response is silly malarkey.

No it isn't.

Cycloptichorn

You're right. Actually it's stupid malarkey.

You're right. Actually it's stupid malarkey.

Quote:

The majority of Jews in Israel, especially the conservative ones, see Palestinians in the same light as the Nazi's saw the Jews. Can you imagine a group of committed Nazi's paying taxes to Jews in a Jewish enclave?

Quote:

The majority of Arabs not in Israel, especially the conservative ones, see Jews in the same light as the Nazi's saw the Jews. Can you imagine a group of committed Nazi's allowing a Jewish enclave to live free among them and pay them taxes?

The really pathetic thing about this thread is that people on both sides often have no better argument than saying "Look, they are doing it, too!!!"

That's not an argument, it was merely my attrempt to complete xingu's argument.

My argument continues to be: the Israeli jews are not doing the samething to Israeli arabs as they are doing to the non-Israeli arabs. Why? Because the Israeli arabs are not attempting to mass murder Israeli jews.

Sad.

My argument continues to be: the Israeli jews are not doing the samething to Israeli arabs as they are doing to the non-Israeli arabs. Why? Because the Israeli arabs are not attempting to mass murder Israeli jews.

ican711nm wrote:

You're right. Actually it's stupid malarkey.

If that is an indicator of your desire for, and willingness to tolerate, rational discourse, then why should I respond at all?

ican711nm wrote:

My argument continues to be: the Israeli jews are not doing the samething to Israeli arabs as they are doing to the non-Israeli arabs. Why? Because the Israeli arabs are not attempting to mass murder Israeli jews.

Right.

Then again, what about the Jews living in the West Bank - outside the Israeli settlements? This is a serious question, btw. If 17 percent of the population of the West Bank are Jewish - are they tolerated by the Palestinians?

I posted some links earlier, but it got all but ignored...